The doctor is in! Dr. Carole Isom-Barnes is our very special guest on this week’s episode. Dr. Isom-Barnes is a retired Bank of America senior leader and the current President of Xperience Leadership. She earned her PhD in Leadership and Change from Antioch University and is now a graduate professor of Strategic Communication at Queens University. As a chair, vice-chair, and director on multiple boards, Dr. Isom-Barnes has helped evaluate CEO performance and compensation. She specializes in supporting organizations through restructuring, strategic planning, C-suite turnovers, and cost-cutting measures.
Dr. Isom-Barnes shares with us her own experience in leadership roles and the expertise she gained through them. Beyond titles, seniority, or position, Dr. Isom-Barnes reminds us that leadership is about having a vision and motivating others to work towards that goal. It takes flexibility, sincerity, empathy, active listening, courage, and consistency. Her detailed insights range in topic from:
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How to create a vision statement
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The differences between leading large and small organizations
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What leaders struggle with the most
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And so much more
Whether you are heading up a brand new team or inheriting a leadership position, she has invaluable advice for success. The most important action is taking the first step. Don’t miss out; listen now!
Mentioned in this episode:
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Carole’s email: Carole@XperienceLeadership.com
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Carole’s Podcast: Career Couch with Dr. Carole and Friends
Transcript
Carole Isom Barnes: Leaders have to shift. Leaders have to listen. And you know you have to modify your leadership depending upon the circumstances that you are in.
Voiceover: You’re listening to the Vibrant Leadership podcast with leadership speaker and consultant Nicole Greer.
Nicole Greer: Hey everybody welcome to the Vibrant Leadership podcast, this is Nicole Greer and I am here today with none other than Dr. Carole Isom Barnes but I’m on the inner circle. I get to call her Carole. Isn’t that right, Carol?
Carole: That is right, Nicole, how are you doing today?
Nicole: I’m doing great. I’m doing great. Let me tell them all about you. Okay, so Dr. Carole Isom Barnes is a retired Bank of America senior leader, and current scholar and practitioner. Her days are full. She’s the president and owner of Xperience Leadership, and that is an X at the beginning of that giant Xperience Leadership. And she is also a graduate professor of Strategic Communication at Queen’s University. So we’re going to ask her a few questions about strategic communication, major leadership skill. And she served on and leads multiple boards with fiduciary oversight out as a Chair, Vice Chair and Director.
Her service includes selecting and evaluating CEO performance and compensation, managing P&L and ensuring risk and regulatory compliance. She knows a whole lot, people. And she has also provided support with restructurings, real estate, sales and development, strategic planning, C suite turnover and cost cutting measures. She can do it all! Carole has a PhD in leadership and change. And I want to ask you first thing right out of the gate, where do you get your PhD in leadership and change? Where’d you go to school?
Carole: I got my PhD from Antioch University, which has five campuses in the US and I currently serve on the the board there. So I’m on the board at Antioch University as well.
Nicole: That’s, that’s an absolutely amazing, so she’s definitely a scholar, and that’s on my bucket list. Carole. One day, I’m going to get my PhD. I just graduated two weekends ago with my masters. So I’m going to be calling you on a private line for that. I’ll take I’ll take you for dinner. So firstly, I want to find out from Carole is what is your definition of leadership? You know, there’s a bunch of them out there. But like, if you were going to give us the Dr. Barnes version, what would it be?
Carole: Well, you know, you’re right, there are a lot of definitions of leadership, right? There’s so many. And let me just first say this, it has nothing to do with titles, seniority, or position. And I think people oftentimes think that it has something to do with the role of the seat that they sit in. So you don’t need a title to lead. It’s about really, truly influencing others towards a goal, which also helps if you have a vision about that goal, I might add. So there are a lot of, you know, elements, a lot of definitions of leadership. But I think there are some behaviors that are consistent, and whoever is defining leadership. So first of all, you have to have a following, right? And so if you don’t have a following, you have to question whether you are really truly leading or not leading, and you want people who are following your example.
And so I think that’s important. You want to be in a position where you’re creating an environment for change. So leaders are not comfortable with status quo. They question authority, they question rules, they question regulations, they have a strategic orientation, versus say, a tactical one. And you would like to hope that with leadership comes motivating and inspiring others. So these are just, you know, examples and behaviors of being a leader, but it really has nothing to do with titles, seniority, or the position that you you might hold. So I would just narrow it down to influencing others towards a very specific goal.
Nicole: Okay, so she had a lot she downloaded in there. And the first thing I want to point out is she said, they should have this strategic plan, but there should be a vision. And she said, I might add, so talk about visioning. Because I will tell you, when I work with leaders, I say to them, tell me what you want to have happen in 1, 2, 3, 10 years. And it’s almost like what do you mean, you know, we’ve got a budget for one year, you know, so when you talk about a vision, how do you help leaders? Or how does a leader put together their vision statement? What does that look like?
Carole: Well, you know, you should know where you want to go with your team or with your organization. And if you do not know who you want to go with your team organization, I would be very concerned for you as a leader. But you know, if you inherit, say, a team or you inherit an organization, you know, first of all, I would talk to the people who are currently in the role, not in the role, but it on the team. And, you know, get some feedback in terms of, you know, what’s happening here? What are you seeing? What do you think would make this organization or this team better? That doesn’t mean that you have to accept everything that they’re saying. But it gives you a little bit of a foundation for maybe where there might be deficiencies, or maybe where there’s a gap that can support you, and identifying, you know, your vision and understanding where the team or where the organization needs to go?
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. So you know, I love what you just said, I’d be worried about you if you couldn’t figure out where you want to go, because you’re in the lead, like, don’t miss that everybody, right. Okay, so I have a little coaching methodology called SHINE. And the first part of it is self assessment. And so I want to go to the way back when Dr. Carole Isom Barnes figured out, oh, my gosh, I think I’m a leader. So did you ever have like an epiphany moment? Or, how did you essentially get into leadership? Because you went way up the ranks at Bank of America and i think you broke a lot of rules getting there, in terms of what you know, traditionally happens in corporations. So tell us a little bit about your leadership journey? Because I think you’re just an amazing story.
Carole: Well, thank you so much, Nicole, you know, what’s interesting about me in leadership is that there was there wasn’t a defining moment. For me, I think, you know, growing up, I just naturally was a take charge type of person, I didn’t call it leadership by that name. My family members had a name for it called a bossy, you know, but within that I just, naturally, this took the lead on certain things, and it wasn’t necessarily a particular role. Now, as I started having opportunities in the workplace, I would probably say my first real official, someone’s actually paying me to be a leader was when I graduated out of college, and I went into a management trainee program.
And so that was the official, you know, label, as you know, leader in terms of leading a team of people in a department, not to be confused with, you know, management, but I was actually leading people leading people to, you know, their highest potential, leaving in an area to support the team in growing, supporting the organization and growing, having a vision of where I saw the employee’s growth while the team and the organizations got. So that was the first paying opportunity, the family still didn’t stop, stop calling me bossy. So I don’t know. So that’s still that’s still there. But, you know, I learned a lot, even from that experience, because I learned how to be a leader in a fortune 100 environment. Now, that’s a different experience than being a leader in a smaller environment. And I often tell the story of how I left a fortune 100 opportunity, and I was a leader in a smaller organization, and it was an epic fail.
And the reason it was an epic fail, was because I didn’t shift. And I didn’t shift because I didn’t know to shift. And I thought I could take those same leadership skills in a that I learned from a fortune 100 culture, and bring it over to the smaller organization, and lead in that way, and they didn’t work. And that was that I was maybe about 25, you know, at that time, and what I learned is, you know, leaders have to shift, leaders have to listen. And you know, you have to modify your leadership, depending upon the circumstances that you are in, it’s not, you know, one flat leadership style that fits everyone you have to adapt for, for the people, you have to adapt for the culture. And so it was a learning experience that I learned very early on. And I think it was a very valuable learning experience for me.
Nicole: Yeah, so don’t miss what she just said. She said, every culture is different. And when you go in, you’re going to have different humans that you’ll be leading. And then of course, each one of those people need you to approach them differently. Absolutely. And so one of the things that you need to understand about Carole’s background is she has a huge human resources background. And in fact, I’ve had the privilege of sitting under her teaching twice now about human resources and I’ve learned a lot and there there is kind of a disconnect between HR and leaders still today. It’s getting better it’s getting better we call our HR people you know, business partners and all this kind of stuff, but without the people ain’t nothing’s gonna get done. Am I right, Carole?
Carole: You’re absolutely right. The you know, the first word is human. Second word resource, right? So without the people, it just doesn’t happen.
Nicole: Absolutely. So so you know, what, what is the key thing a leader needs to understand about leading their human resources? Yeah, there’s leading strategy, there’s looking at where the money is. The finances, but then there’s this huge thing of dealing with the people. And to me, if you don’t have the people part in place, the finances and the strategy is not going to work anyway. So with your rich experience in human resources, how should a leader think about their people?
Carole: Well, you know, first we talk about, you know, being a visionary, first and foremost, because you want people to follow you. But I think you also have to recognize that, because you’re dealing with people, you have to be an active listener, right. You have to really listen to what people are saying. Oftentimes, leaders will say, well, you know, I’m the boss, I’m the leader. And so I tell you, when you have to also take a step back and be an active listener, you have to learn from others. And you also have to be teachable, as well. You have to be, you know, empathetic, you know, sincere, genuine, you want to be flexible, you have to understand the goals and the needs of the people that you are leading, because it’s gonna vary from one person to to the next.
You want to make sure that your customer in people friendly, customer, people focused, because you are dealing with people, these are the people that are going to follow you. But at the same time, you have to be courageous, you have to be a risk taker. I mean, these are all the things that come with being a you know, being a leader and trying to balance that. And I think that can be very challenging. But I think good leaders are able to master that and master that well.
Nicole: Yeah. And so here’s the thing, I know if I’m going to be brave and courageous and take a risk. Before I do all that work, I am going to do what you say, I’m going to go get with my people. Get informed, be coachable. Learn from them. Now I’m going to create a strategy I’m going to go out and execute. Sometimes we decide what we’re going to execute, we haven’t consulted our people, and that’s where disaster happens. So I love what you’re saying.
Well, you you’ve been the HR director and having dealt with like, I’m guessing, I don’t know, 1000s of people behind closed doors, who are your coaching, counseling, helping them to either leave the company or stay with the company, whichever they’re going to choose based on their behavior? What do you think the things are that leaders struggle with the most, you know, when you’ve sat down with managers of different departments, and you’ve said, okay, you need help. And so what what are the things you’ve found that are the recurring problems that people really need to think about when they’re leading teams?
Carole: I think probably the most successful leaders learn from their mistakes. And I think leaders who do not learn from their mistakes are going to face a lot of challenges. And, you know, you really have to be as a leader, you have to be in a constant position of growth, you have to be in a position of wanting to learn. And Nicole, you’ve heard me say that if your environment is not a, you know, a learning culture, then it’s going to be dead, because it needs to be active. People need to constantly be learning. And very few people start out as just strong leaders, it’s, it’s a process.
And I’ve learned that, you know, along the way myself, you know, with my epic fail that I just shared. But what’s important is the learning in the desire to improve along the way. And as I said, being an active listener, you have to listen to the people that you are leading and be willing to learn from others. And which means sometimes you have to stop talking. And listen, because it’s the people who are in the trenches, it’s the people who are, you know, that are supporting you that really, truly can make or break you, you know, as a leader.
So I would say, you know, give yourself some grace, learn from your, your mistakes, and mistakes are gonna happen, but take those as learning opportunities to improve and be in a constant state of wanting to learn wanting to grow, wanting to improve. That being said, I think that when we think, you know, I talked about leaders who are really great leaders in the same breath, when we look at leaders who are not great leaders, somethings that are, you know, pretty consistent. They’re not ethical, you know, they lack character. They’re know-it-alls. They’re arrogant, and they don’t like people. So I would also say if you don’t like people, you probably, you know, don’t want to lead people if you don’t like people.
Nicole: You need to become a specialist and have your own office at the end of the hall.
Carole: Right. Exactly. You know, unkind, they’re toxic, you know, so these are the some of the characteristics that we see of people who are actually, you know, poor leaders. And, you know, that’s just not gonna work.
Nicole: That’s right. That’s right. And so you just hit on the I in the SHINE coaching methodology, we, you, you kind of talked about habits, you know, you need to be kind, you need to be a person who is in integrity, right? So it’s a lot about really good behaviors or habits around your behaviors. And then I kind of heard this thing of integrity, you need to be a good person. Right?
Carole: Absolutely.
Nicole: I remember following people who I’m like, I don’t trust them.
Carole: You know, it’s hard to lead someone towards a goal or influence someone to towards a goal, if they don’t trust you.
Nicole: 100%.
Carole: We know that that’s very difficult. And I heard someone say, you know, if you’re a leader, and no one’s following you, you’re just walking in the park. You know, and I think that is so true. I mean, leaders have followers, and if no one’s following you, are you really, truly leading?
Nicole: Yeah, well, let’s go there for just a moment. So give us some ideas about building trust, and how you know, being an integrity leads to this trust building, kind of talk a little bit about how you’ve done that in your own work, and then how you help you know, all the people that you’re doing in your practice and your consulting practice.
Carole: I think, you know, building trust as the leader is the same as building trust in any other relationship. It’s about consistency. And it’s about delivering on what you say you’re going to deliver on repeatedly. And I think that’s how people build trust in relationships. So that people now I can rely on Nicole. Nicole is consistent. Nicole is going to deliver on what she says. She does what she says she’s going to do.
Nicole: You took the words right out of my mouth.
Carole: Yeah. And the more that the more you do that, the more people become comfortable with you, and they feel like they can trust you. So trust is really about relationships in consistency. And I try, you know, to do that every single time. I mean, sometimes, you know, things happen, and you’re not able to deliver for one thing or another. Right. But I that is a goal of mine to be consistent. To deliver on what I say I’m going to deliver upon and I think that’s very important. And I would say that if you ask my client, they would say yes, she’s consistent. She’s reliable. She delivers on what she says, you know, unless there’s some extenuating circumstances. I think that that would be my reputation with my clients. And I like that.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. All right. So I’ve got one final question for you. There’s, there’s a lot of people listening right now that, you know, they’re thinking, how do I get where Dr. Carole Isom Barnes has gotten. Like, how do I how do I do that? Do you have like one special piece of information for that special listener, you know, if they were going to do something every day to help them get where you got? What would be the thing that they would do? Might be simple things.
Carole: The first thing I would say is to take the first step. Sounds small, right? But take the first step. And a lot of times people will sit back and they’ll think, Oh, I want to do this, I want to do that. But they don’t take the first step. They don’t take any steps towards achieving that goal that they’re interested in. So take the first step. And it doesn’t have to be a big first step, it can be a small first step. But take a moment, spend some time alone with yourself, self reflect, think about what it is that you want to do. Think about why you want to do it and think about is it realistic? So if you say, you know, I want to be the next greatest NBA player, right? And you’re 60 years old. I mean, I think that’s a nice goal. But take a step back and say, is that realistic at this point in time, right?
So think about what is it what your goal is? And then ask yourself, is it realistic? And if it’s a realistic goal, then take a moment and say, okay, how can I get there? What’s the first step that I can take to achieve that particular goal? And then take that first step. Who are the people that are doing what I want to do? Network with those people. Reach out, reach out through LinkedIn, reach out through people who have written books. You know, read certain, you know, magazines, become familiar with the lingo. Join associations that are connected with that thing that you want to do, and, you know, have conversations with people. Ask people how did you get to where you are going?
People love talking about themselves, right? Yeah. And so you can just say to, you know, reach out to someone and say, hey, you know, I’m interested in doing x, do you have, you know, 30 minutes to talk to me about how you achieved x. And if that person gives you that time, come prepared, make the best use of that person’s time. And if you say just give me 30 minutes, do 30minutes. Do 30 minutes, respect their time. And you know, and then build that rapport, you know, with that person if you can. And so they’re just little baby steps. But start, I would say, with the first step. And it really just starts with you with that self reflection. Is what I what it was what I would say.
Nicole: Yeah, so we’re right back at the self assessment, part of the SHINE. I just think that leaders, really, you know, aspiring leaders, current leaders sit still, and think about what you’re doing, right? You know, so many times, we’re just mach five with our hair on fire. And we’re not, you know, sitting quietly and doing some really good thinking. So Dr. Barnes, we are out of time for today. But it has been so great to have you back. I would love to have you back in the future to talk more about your personal journey, and then also about the importance of having a learning organization. I think we could have a whole show about that.
And also, about your personal journey in your in your personal education. I think getting educated around leadership is essential. You know, like you said, reading the books, but then like, maybe you even want to go get your PhD like Dr. Carole Isom Barnes. Well, that will teach you a lot about leadership. It’s not just getting the funny hat to wear at the graduation, am I right?
Carole: That’s right. And again, it’s about taking the first step, if you want a PhD, what do you want a PhD in? Take the first step which may simply be going online, look at the programs that offer you know, PhDs in your your area of interest. And it’s so much easier today to get a PhD because you don’t have to do the residency in person now at a lot of universities. So many universities now have the ability to do your PhD online at you know, very reputable universities.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, well, it’s been a delight to be with you. Please tell them quickly about where they can find you. Your website and then also don’t miss this everybody. She’s got her own podcast, and it’s fantastic. So tell us about those two things so we can find out more about you.
Carole: Absolutely. My website is xperienceleadership.com. And that’s x p e r i e n c e leadership.com so you can find out more about me and my business management company. My podcast is the Career Couch with Dr. Carole and Friends, and that is found on Apple, Audible, I heart, Spotify, all the major all the major podcast sites. And so if you would like to send an email, I can be reached at Carole, carole@xperienceleadership.com and that’s experience, as you said with an X. So there you go.
Nicole: Well X marks the spot where we have made an impact on everybody’s leadership learning today, Dr. Carole Isom Barnes, my friend Carole, thank you so much for being on the Vibrant Leadership podcast.
Carole: Thank you, Nicole. Thank you for having me. It’s always a pleasure. I appreciate it.
Voiceover: Ready to up your leadership game? Bring Nicole Greer to speak to your leadership team, conference or organization to help them with her unique SHINE method to increase clarity, accountability, energy and results. Email speaking@vibrantculture.com. Be sure to check out Nicole’s TEDx talk at vibrantculture.com/TEDTalk
