Challenge your assumptions of leadership.
Why should you ask candidates where they want to be AFTER the position you are hiring for?
Why is getting into the weeds on a complex problem good leadership?
Dan Gray leads the growth team at Kotn, a sustainable clothing line, and has a decade of experience scaling B2B and B2C brands. The passion for his employees, drive to learn and commitment to his core values and beliefs are an inspiration to all leaders.
This is a conversation you do not want to miss. Listen now!
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Transcript
Dan Gray: In order to be a good leader, you really have to get yourself right. It’s hard to take on other people’s emotions and other people’s baggage when you aren’t prepared to address her handle your own.
Voiceover: You’re listening to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast with professional speaker, coach and consultant Nicole Greer.
Nicole Greer: Welcome to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. My name is Nicole Greer, and they call me the vibrant coach and I am here with none other than the Canadian Dan Gray. Dan is wonderful and has over 10 years of experience scaling both b2c and b2b brands. He has been able to be successful at building great teams, challenging assumptions and continuously learning along the way. This is my kind of guy. He has a passion for technology, marketing and commerce, and always welcomes the opportunity to discuss and debate many of the exciting changes these industries are experiencing. Please welcome to the show, Dan Gray. Dan, how are you?
Dan: I’m doing well. Thank you. I’ve never been described as the Canadian, but I’m happy to represent the country today. So thanks for having me.
Nicole: Oh, that’s okay. Well, you know, I have another favorite Canadian. Susur Lee, do you know who Susur Lee is?
Dan: I feel like I should but I don’t.
Nicole: Okay, you have to be like a completely insane foodie like myself. So there’s a guy that owns a restaurant in Toronto named Susur Lee, and he was on Top Chef Masters. Go watch it on Amazon Prime. That’s all I’m saying.
Dan: I know where I’m grabbing dinner tonight. So we’re set in that department.
Nicole: Okay. Very good. Yeah. So I have a coach and his name is Dan Sullivan. And he’s also up in Toronto. And, and he he’s the one that told me that Susur Lee’s restaurant was his favorite. And see, it’s all about who you know, in this business, isn’t it? All right. Well, I want to start off, I’m collecting definitions of leadership. What’s your definition of leadership, Dan?
Dan: That is a meaty question.
Nicole: Yes it is.
Dan: So I think the political answer is, it’s all it’s it’s all geared towards social influence. You know, when you think about leadership, it’s leading other people. So it’s social influence towards a common goal or objective. I personally see it as more than that, I think that sort of encompasses the broader idea of it. But for me, what leadership is, is, it’s not only influencing people towards that goal, but it’s also sharing the vision, sort of mapping out how we get there. And then I also believe that the execution is such a big part of it, because I am nothing but hands in the dirt substance, you know, go and go and sort of solve the problem together. So, for me, that’s what it’s all about.
Nicole: Yeah, I totally agree. You know, one thing I think people struggle with Dan is, is doing that casting of division. Now, I know you have one cool organization that you work inside of, it’s called Kotn. But hey, everybody write this down, K O T N not like C O T T E N. Let me repeat K o t n. Go check it out. Tell me, tell me a little bit about how you got your organization to go in such a cool direction? Because you are a sustainable clothing line. Is that not right?
Dan: That’s correct. Yeah, you know, I can’t take the credit. And I’m not one of the founders. But I’ve been fortunate enough to be with the team for the last two and a half years. But what Kotn is all about, you know, if you think about what it takes to build an apparel business, this company was really built in the most difficult way possible. The founders went straight to Egypt, they thought, hey, the way you build a clothing brand is to talk to farmers and just go to the source. And by doing so what they ended up doing was creating one of the most ethical supply chains out there when it comes to traceability of where the product and all of its inputs come from.
And so when you talk about vision, you know, for us, what we try and do in this, in this industry is only only 5% of the apparel industry can make the same claim we do, which is 100% traceability knowing every single stakeholder in your supply chain. And so I think starting to create products with that lens and starting to show the world that hey, this is possible, you know, the company is only seven or eight years old, you know, if a company of our size can go and build this, why can’t the rest of the industry do that? Why can’t they start moving towards better made higher quality products that are made by people with people in mind in a way that’s traceable, and ethical. So yeah, we’re really excited about about the vision that we’ve laid out in the leadership that we’re carving out in that space.
Nicole: Yeah. And so I’m sitting over here, I’m a little floored, 100% traceability. So you can say I’m wearing this Kotn t shirt and I know all the way from beginning to end where it came from is what you’re telling me.
Dan: Exactly. I personally don’t know all of their names, but we say it’s from farm to hanger. So we work directly with, I don’t think we coined that. And we can’t take credit for it. But I think it’s just a catchy way of sort of explaining what we do. But yeah, we work with, with farmers in Egypt in the Nile Delta region to, to farm 100%, organic Egyptian cotton. And we know everyone all the way through the dyeing process, cut and sew all the way to our warehouses here in Toronto. So, yeah, we’re super proud of that. I mean, it’s why we’re recognized as a B Corp, which, you know, something we’re certainly very excited about.
And we were also recently named one of B Corps best for the world. So not only are we in the upper echelon, with the rest of the B Corps, we’re actually within the top 5% of all the B Corps in the world. So a lot of really, really exciting milestones. And again, it just gives us a platform to continue pushing our vision towards a more ethical and sustainable supply chain, not just in the apparel space. But I think if you think about all the ways we consume different goods, hopefully we can extend that and influence others to think that this is possible in other sectors too.
Nicole: That’s fantastic. So not only do you guys have leadership going on, on the inside, but you guys are doing leadership out to all the industries and showing people how to do it. That is so fantastic.
Dan: It makes leading inside that much easier too because getting alignment on a vision where our employees can go out to the world and, you know, show pride in what they’re making, feel good about the lives we’re impacting, and the work they’re doing. My job as a leader is that much easier, you know, I can point to hey, you’re, you’re applying influence here, you’re making a difference in the world. It really does make the job a lot smoother. I’ll tell you that much.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I have this little diagram that I use when I’m when I’m doing leadership development, and it’s got different layers of of the human. And it’s just to kind of tease out and look at what you know, what people are made of, and what kind of, you know, human you’ve got working there for you. And one of my circles is beliefs. And I don’t think we ever stopped to go, gosh, what are the what are the hard core beliefs or the absolute beliefs of this person that we’re hiring? And I think you’re absolutely right. You know, when you ask somebody, do you want to work for a company that has an ethical supply chain, traceability, they’re farm to hanger, and they’re in the top 5%. Is that what you, 5%?
Dan: Yeah, exactly.
Nicole: Yeah. I mean, you know, it’s easy to believe, right?
Dan: For sure, for sure. So here’s a question for you then, because I love that, and I would love to be able to figure it out, when I’m interviewing people, you know, what their belief system is? How does that belief system link to what we’re doing here? But it’s so easy to just get someone to give you you know, the run of the mill, oh, I love that Kotn does this and does that. How do you get that out of someone in an interview in a way that’s genuine and authentic?
Nicole: Yeah, well, I think the thing that I first start with is I ask people what their core values are. And usually this just trips people up, and I’m not trying to trip people up. I’m truly looking for people who know what they believe or know what they think is important. And I think that’s really huge. So you guys probably have core values inside of Kotn, don’t you?
Dan: We do, and we’re constantly working on them. Yeah, I think what that’s one of the things as a startup, you know, every time you hit a new milestone, it’s like, oh, God, we got to throw these values out and not like, you know, toss them aside. It’s just how do you evolve them in a way that it creates meaning for a larger group. So that’s actually an exercise we, we recently went through, and we’re always thinking about, we want to give our team members something to strive toward. You know, we want to, we want to be able to point to, hey, this is a value that you’re, you’re doing a great job on, when it comes time to performance evaluations and just general conduct throughout the business.
I think one of the hardest things for employees, especially new employees, is like, how, am I doing a good job? You know, I get that question all the time, whether it’s people that we work with, or, you know, people that I’m talking to from other companies, it’s like, it’s so hard to make an impact early on. And so having those beliefs and core values written out and, you know, giving a compass to employees to say, oh, okay, I’m aligning here, I’m, I’m crushing it, I feel great. I have motivation, and I am working towards this goal. That’s, that’s a luxury that, you know, we’re excited to afford our employees. And again, something we’re constantly rethinking and never want to become stagnant on.
Nicole: Oh, that’s fantastic. Yeah. So I think, I think when you ask them about your core values as a company, and then you ask them about their personal core values, that definitely gives you a little peek inside their belief system. And I’ll tell you another thing, I think is so cool about your organization. I mean, you guys are trying to make money, right?
Dan: We are. We’re trying to make money, yeah. We’ve been relatively successful with that piece, too. So you know, that’s, that’s part of the leadership is like, hey, this is a company that’s growing and doing great. And we still managed to achieve all of this because I think the early days of sustainable clothing, sustainable consumerism, it was too expensive. The bar was way too high for consumers to buy into that. And I think our price point is actually pretty reasonable. You know, we’re selling a $30 T shirt and well, that’s not for everyone. I know that’s not your like, you know, five pack $20 T shirts that you could buy at, at the local supermarket. We’re selling a quality product at a price that I think is attainable. Maybe your entire wardrobe doesn’t look like Kotn product, but at least it’s taking small steps towards changing your buying habits.
Nicole: Yeah. And and the reason why I asked that, and I love your answer is, is that, you know, when I, when I interview people, I also ask people, how does a business work? And this is another question that always trips people up, because I think some people think, well, first of all I have I have grace for people because like, maybe they didn’t get a business degree, or they never, you know what I mean? Like, they were somewhere growing up, they worked for their dad, they worked at the grocery store, they worked at the, you know, McDonald’s, I don’t know where they work. But you know, they never really stopped stopped to think about oh, my gosh, we none of us would get a paycheck if we didn’t make a profit, right.
And so, when people believe that we need to make a profit, then I want to hire them. But if they’re like, don’t believe, you know, they don’t understand that like, that’s the that’s the answer. I have a problem sometimes. All right, that’s awesome. Okay, so what are you seeing out there in the future? We have had like, the craziest last, like, three years or four years or whatever, right? We’ve got COVID. Now we’ve got craziness going on in the Ukraine. How are you guys navigating all this craziness? Tell me like how leadership might have played a part or how you’ve kept your culture together? In these ridiculous crazy times.
Dan: Yeah, I mean, it’s been unprecedented. I feel like that word is, is getting stale. But it truly does feel that way, at least in my lifetime. We’ve been really fortunate, I will say in I take for granted way too often living in Canada and being here in Toronto, just the the luxuries that were afforded from a safety standpoint, and how much good that we have here. From an organizational standpoint, it’s been a lot of the same, you know, we’ve been relatively unaffected in terms of our supply chain and our ability to continue driving impact, both here in Canada and across North America and throughout the communities that we work with in Egypt.
So, you know, we’ve been very fortunate in that way. But I think as a leader, one of the challenges has been like, how do I create connection, meaningful connection with the people that I’m working with? Because a lot of the employees that I’ve hired in the last few years, you know, I’ve only met them a handful of times. So how do you, how do you create a connection where it’s exciting for them to come to work today? And then, you know, in addition to that, how do I find inspiration myself? Because there’s been times.
Nicole: That’s a good point.
Dan: Yeah, like, if you can’t show up to work with your best self as a leader, like, oh, you’re done. Like, you have, you’ve no shot at leading the way that your, your, your people need you to. So what we’ve really tried to do as an organization is one, continue articulating the vision and the impact that we have. Because when you’re not together, it’s easy to lose sight of the tangible and intangible things that we’re doing. And so you know, allowing the team these moments to say, hey, you know, we just built another three schools in Egypt.
That helps us get even further towards our goal of reducing the illiteracy rate that’s happening there with children, as a result of our Black Friday and Cyber Monday promotion. That’s one of the big campaigns that we run every year. Talking about those things, talking about the number of lives, we’re impacting the difference we’re making, from a sustainability and ethics standpoint, that’s a really big thing. And then on top of that, just creating fun opportunities for folks to get together, where whether it’s like, how was your week, tell us a win or a loss that you had this week, whether it’s, you know, we celebrate events together on zoom with ourselves and our partners.
You know, we just recently went skating a couple of weeks ago and had a team event, it’s cold enough here to skate in Toronto. So we did a little team social, but as a manager, you just have to constantly be thinking about, okay, like, where’s the mental psyche of my team? What do I need to do for them? Do I need to provide them a couple of minutes to step out of their space and just be emotional and vulnerable about how they’re feeling and what’s going on in the world? And again, extending that same opportunity and gratitude to be vulnerable to yourself. So you show up in the right headspace.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I just got this big hit when you were talking about building schools in Egypt. And so I’m hearing this thing that I learned in a little while back called triple bottom line. Are you guys intentionally triple bottom lining? Or is this like just serendipity that you’re hitting all bottom lines because the triple bottom line, and correct me if I don’t get it right Dan if you know more than me, you know, let’s educate each other back and forth and listeners at the same time. But like there’s the profit there’s that bottom line, which I’ve already mentioned, then there’s the sustainability or the impact on the environment bottom line, and then there is like a social responsibility bottom line. So is, are your founders are they subscribed to that? That’s what I’m getting.
Dan: Yeah, I love, I love that you bring up that concept. Because to be honest, I haven’t heard that since I think like business school. Yeah, it’s nice to get a refresh. I’m so glad you walked me through it because I was like, oh God, what are the three. Profit, and what’s the next one?
Nicole: And we’ll probably get comments or something or I’ll get an email. No, you should do your homework. But anyway, it’s close to that anyway.
Dan: To be honest, I don’t know if it’s been with that level of intentionality. I think, again, it stems from the vision that, hey, we’re gonna build a business and a consumer brand that’s about culture, community and advocating for those communities that we’re a part of. So whether that’s here in Toronto, whether that’s across North America, in the communities that we have stores, or you know, more directly in specifically in Egypt, where we have our entire supply chain, and we have our schools, how do we drive impact there? And so I don’t think it was this intentional thing where I was like, okay, you know, we need to check these boxes, I think it was just a natural, if we’re going to build a business that’s about ethics and taking care of people, how do we always think about a way to do that to the extreme, that still makes sense, from a profit standpoint.
You’re totally right, like, we still have to run a business here. We still have to be thoughtful about how we operate, but at the same time when those opportunities are afforded when we have the resources to be able to do this. And we’ve been fortunate that we do again, Black Friday, and Cyber Monday going back to that example. It’s like, here’s the largest online shopping holiday of the year, why not tie the demand and hype that comes around that, that shopping day, and tie back to our schools in Egypt. So we’ve been doing that I think for like five or six years now. And that’s just a natural fit.
No one, no one was like, hey, we need to check this box and make sure we’re giving back to our communities. It’s just something that I think is core to our business. And the more that we can reiterate that across the company, and what I’ve observed is like those ideas don’t always come from our founders. I think we’ve done a good job of distributing the culture that hey, everyone has the ability to make an impact here. Those ideas are coming from all across the business.
Nicole: That’s fantastic. Yeah. And so you know, the name of the podcast is Build a Vibrant Culture and like your energy is super fantastic. And you and when I looked at your bio, you know, I’m a big word person, Dan. So I’m looking at this as like, he has passion. And he likes to debate and he likes to talk about the exciting changes. So like, there’s debate, exciting, challenging, building. Oh, it’s gotta. I just love it. All right. So where does this this come from inside of you, because I think there are some leaders that are like, they’re dialed in, they’re lit from within. I have this little talk, I call Get Lit. And people like the title because they think it means we’re gonna go have cocktails, which we can do after we work real hard. But you know, getting lit, like, it seems like you are lit from within. What, why are you so alive on the inside, because it’s definitely coming out. And you just got to be on the inside, before it comes out I think.
Dan: That’s very kind of you, you know, I don’t even think of myself as like that. But I just really get excited about complex problems. I think leadership is one of them. Which is why I was so excited to talk to you today. Because, you know, I for me, my leadership journey is really just beginning, just trying to figure out how I can be a better boss and better leader, not just for my direct reports, but for the entire organization. So that’s one problem that like, I am just so intent on solving and, you know, want to continue to adapt a growth mindset around.
And then for our business, too, you know, like, I’ve been with Kotn again for two and a half years, and we’ve made so much progress, but I continually get enthusiastic about what we’re trying to solve. I recently joined our, our wholesale division, so we actually have an entirely separate business unit around selling our our Egyptian cotton clothing to companies, teams, communities. So you know, I’m also recharged for for a new, new role as well. But yeah, just always finding complex problems and being able to solve them. Putting all the puzzle pieces together and, you know, trying to figure out the bigger picture. That’s, that’s what gets me excited.
Nicole: That’s fantastic. That’s fantastic. All right. So you’ve mentioned the word ethics, like I don’t know, four times. And so I zeroed in on that. So tell me why, I mean, I know we know why ethics are so important. Like do the right thing people, but gosh, our need to mention it or need to talk about it or need to bring it to the forefront. Why is your company and it’s obviously it’s a belief system in you. So what does Dan believe? He believes in ethics people don’t miss that. Okay, so that’s his little circle on his human diagram. One of his things is ethics. Talk to me about that. Has something impacted you or you watched something that you’re like this is going to be key.
Dan: I think for a lot of Kotn’s employees and I love hearing this when people come to to our team or interview with us. There are so many great companies you can work at out there that have amazing products, exciting teams. But the truth is the work is not meaningful. And not to say other companies are not ethical, but I don’t think they’re necessarily building for a better future. They’re building solutions for teams. They’re building solutions for consumers, but I don’t know if they’re building a better future. And so where ethics fits into that. When you think about the consumer goods space, there’s so many reverse consequences to our consumption patterns.
And we all know this, we inherently know this. If you look around any given room, the amount of stuff we have as people is wild. And so when I think about ethics and consequences, and in the world of consumables, we know there’s a cost to that. There’s a cost of having this many things. It’s not, it’s not rational to think that, hey, we continue making these things from a finite set of resources. There’s no consequence to that. So for us, where ethics comes in, as it’s putting constraints around how we do things. It’s the, if I can define it in a different term, it’s it’s like, it’s that focus that pinpoint focus on making things in a better way. It’s making better things in a better way.
So how do you go about not limiting the amount of stuff we have, because people love stuff, and you know, we’re not here to say don’t buy stuff, it’s more buy stuff you’re going to enjoy, you know. Don’t buy stuff to end up in the donation box, or a landfill in, in a week or a month. Especially in the apparel space, you know, so many people buy outfits for one occasion, they like, okay, I’m going out to a club tonight, I gotta buy a dress and throw that on, and then they never wear it again. And the reason they can and they go to these companies where the price is like 25%, 50% below what we sell their products for is because they’re being made in places where the labor conditions are just not up to the standard, we we look for here domestically, right?
So it’s easy for us to look around and see the different, you know, labor laws and rules or conditions, or just the cultures we expect to have here. But we know that when the prices are so low, there’s things happening across the world that, you know, I don’t know, if we’re necessarily proud of. So for us, when we say ethics, it’s more how do we make stuff better? How do we make the quality better so that people aren’t continually consuming them? And, you know, hopefully we deliver on that.
Nicole: No, that’s fantastic. Okay, so everybody write this down. The ethical piece is not just building a product, or a service, or an organization or a company, but building a better future. And that’s just so much bigger and grander. And I don’t know, higher. I don’t know, it’s got, I’ve got a lot of respect for that. That sounds fantastic. And then he said, build, but make better things in a better way. Just that could be a core value, right there. Make better things in a better way. I love that as a core value.
Dan: And I don’t, I don’t think you can have one without the other to be honest with you. I don’t know if you could make amazing quality goods, without investing in a labor force that’s paid adequately or conditions to do that. From a production standpoint, sure. There’s companies in the world that do that where, you know, potentially, the r&d is happening domestically, and then production is happening overseas. But if you want to have a high quality product, you need to pay for the materials and inputs that go into that. You need to take care of the people that are working on it so that you know that care and consideration is going into everything. So yeah, no, I do believe that, you know, it’s funny, you say that it’s a value of mine. I’ve never thought of it like that.
But certainly, I would say through my time with Kotn, I hope I’ve become a better consumer as well. And if there’s people listening that want to be become part of what we’re doing too, you know, like I said, one of the things that we do at Kotn supply, which is our offering for teams, communities and companies is we enable them to tap into our supply chain. So if they want to create custom merchandise for their teams with their logo on it from our Egyptian cotton products, we essentially act as our supply chain in sort of that ethical seal and sustainable steel for them to feel proud of the different vendors that are working with. So I put that offer out there to anyone that that wants to be a part of what we’re building.
Nicole: That’s beautiful. So you can get a shirt with your logo and feel good about the fact that it was a better thing made a better way. That is fantastic. And you can’t do it yourself. You work with people like yourself that can help you do those things. Okay. The other thing you said I thought was fantastic. And I immediately thought of David Phillips with Faster Glass. He’s a guy here, Dan in Charlotte, North Carolina. And he is like you said you know, I want to solve complex problems. You need to, I need to hook you up with David Phillips here in Charlotte because he is a creative, innovative, like guru nerd. You would love him.
Okay, he’s so fantastical. And so I sat in one of his, like lunch and learns or something. He does these cool lunch and learns for Charlotte, North Carolina. And he talked about how constraint make you creative. When you are limited, you gotta get creative like, what? Okay, how can we make it work? So, you know, the Apollo, is it the Apollo 13 movie? That’s right, isn’t it? Where they take all the mess, and they figure out how to get the astronauts back or whatever. So I love what you said about constraints around things.
Dan: That’s such a good thought, though. I mean, for me, that’s, that’s I don’t know if I’ve heard that before. But that’s how I look at problems. Like, I need to touch everything when I’m working on a new problem. So for example, you know, I just took over running this new department for the company, and I’m hands on in every one of our systems. And people are asking, like, Dan, why do you need to know this? Like, why do you need to be? Why do you need to be so in the weeds?
And for me, the truth is, if I don’t have every single puzzle piece, I don’t know how to solve the problem, right? I don’t know what my constraints are. I don’t know what my resources are. And well, you know, you can build things that you don’t see in front of you. Solutions are a lot easier when you know what your limitations are, as well. So I think that’s such an eloquent way to put it. When it comes to problem solving, it really is helpful to know what what the world looks like in front of you.
Nicole: Yeah. Well, you say that you’d like to get in and do complex problems and things. I’m wondering if you’ve solved a complex problem recently. And you might share kind of how you went about it. And and I’ll tell you, I think there’s two schools of thought about, you know, getting getting in the weeds, and then, you know, empowering other people. I don’t I don’t think that Dan is saying he’s going to do the get in and do jobs for others. He’s just trying to make sure he understands what he has available to him to get the problem solved. Right? How many leaders, I mean, hello, everybody out there.
How many times have you had a boss that’s like, they have no clue what we do. They have no clue what’s going on. And so wow, what a great example. Dan is like, no, I’m gonna know exactly what these people on my team do and what they touch and what they experience. So I can help them. So I really celebrate that. So do you have a complex problem or something, you guys finagled and figured out recently that you can share?
Dan: Yeah. A ton of different problems. And I love what you said, like, my goal here is not to take over for people and do the work, it’s actually to do the work with them. Because I also want them to see me being willing to do the work with them. So that when I ask them to take on something that might be above and beyond their job, they know that you know, it’s not above, above me either. So there’s a few. So like, right now, you know, we’re looking for a sales manager. And, you know, we’re a little short on sales resources so, I’ve rolled up my sleeves and started selling, finding companies to talk to, go into my network taking on as many different calls as I can.
We’re re looking at our systems right now and trying to figure out a better order flow so that we can make sure that our products are moving really nicely from Egypt to our distribution center here in Toronto, then over to our decorator partners. So we’re looking at a few different technology vendors. So for me, in order to find the right technical solution, as we were just talking about, it’s like, okay, what systems do we already have in place today? So what do we need to connect to? What are like the, the key determinations there?
Then it’s like, okay, we got to talk to all the different stakeholders that are involved there, whether it’s our finance team, or our engineering team and make sure their considerations are, are documented well. And then, okay, what’s the solution that goes in and solves for that. And so we are still in the process, you’re gonna have to circle back with us. I’m feeling good about about where we’re getting there. But a process map like that, that has so many different inputs, so many different stakeholders, it really can get to a place where you don’t necessarily know what the end solution is going to look like. So you do need to kind of box in and at times.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And so I’m gonna give you another flashback, maybe to your business degree. So I kind of heard this whole thing of like, systemic thinking or systems thinking it’s like, from the tip of my tongue. It’ll come to me in a minute, Dan. Anyways, systems thinking and and that’s what he’s talking about. Also, a kind of heard a little bit of project management. Do you have a project management process in place at Kotn?
Dan: Ahh, not formalized. I think one of the things about being a startup, I mean, our team is only 60 or 70 people at this point. We are still very scrappy in how we how we manage projects, certainly, we’re getting better. There’s a great feedback loop in our organization where, you know, as we as we conduct work, and we work together as a team to solve things, we do try our best to, you know, do post mortems and provide each other feedback on how we can improve those processes. So no, no, no formal project management at the moment, but hopefully we get better over time.
Nicole: Yeah, well, I heard some project management drops there. So I, you just must be coming out of you from business school. Where do you go to school? Can I ask this very personal question?
Dan: Yeah, I went to went to it’s called Wilfrid Laurier University it’s in, it’s in Waterloo, Ontario, for those not too familiar with the area. So right next door to Waterloo University.
Nicole: Okay, fantastic. Fantastic. All right. And don’t miss what he said. You know, we’re young and we’re scrappy. We only got 60 or 70 people. And you know, again, listen to the word that he’s using everybody this word scrappy. Okay? I mean, that is a fantastically build a vibrant culture word, right? You know. So these are people again, scrappy taking the constraints, the scraps left behind trying to figure it out. And they’re doing some great work. So, so I don’t know that everybody that’s listening has ever heard of a post mortem conversation.
I know that, you know, in the army, the United States Army, they do this thing where they look at how the operation went, and they sit back and they’re like, you know, how could it have gone better. So tell me a little bit about when you conduct those and how you conduct those. Because I think a lot of times, my leaders are like moving mach five with their hair on fire. And it’s like, wait, slow down, hold on a minute. Let’s talk about how that just went so that when we do it over here, we don’t make the same mistakes. How does that look when you guys do that? And that feedback loop you mentioned. I’m curious about that.
Dan: Yeah, for sure. So I mean, every time we kick off a project, we do we do our best to document going into what our hypothesis is, what’s the structure for the project, what do we think the outcome is going to look like, just so we can put down a bet, or you know, some sort of prediction for what we think is going to happen. And so as we go through the motions, obviously, things take a different turn, or, you know, the outcome is better or worse than we anticipated. So at the end of the project, what we sort of put the burden on to the project managers, hey, get everyone involved in here gather all the data related to what just happened. And let’s talk about how we could have made it better, what things worked really well and what didn’t.
And so, for us that learning cycle is imperative to what we do, especially as a retail business, everything is so cyclical, you know, we go through the retail calendar, and then 12 months later, we go through it again, right. So if we do want to run some of the same promotions, or same campaigns, when it comes to the products we’re offering, we want to make sure we document as much as possible. How it went and what we can do better. So usually, there’s some sort of documentation. Usually like a post mortem document or presentation given to the team involved.
And everyone’s given the opportunity to fill out a survey or raise their hand in that meeting and provide additional feedback on hey, within my given area, what do I think I could have done better? How did we do relative to the results that we incurred. But also at a macro level, because, you know, even if you were only responsible for one piece of the project, we want to get your input on, on the broader sort of goal and how we did against that. So we go ahead, we document all of that we kind of put it in a vault, and we say, alright, we’re gonna come back to this.
And then next year, when that time comes around, and we start planning a similar project, or, you know, we want some inspiration, all of that is saved on our Google Drive, we’re able to easily reference that and before, especially if we do run that same campaign again. So you know, using that Black Friday example, because we continually run that 100% of proceeds go to building schools in Egypt, we want to look at what kind of response we got both from the team and from our stakeholders externally, being our customers, as well. And so we want to take that input and apply it to next year.
Nicole: That’s fantastic. Okay, so you’re you’re talking about, you know, documenting come back to things you mentioned, Google Drive. And so this, it triggered this thing in my brain plus, it says on here that you have a passion for technology. So I have, I have a really good question for you. Because, as I understand too, you’re across the ocean here with folks in the Middle East and Egypt and everything. So you’re doing long distance communication, and the whole shebang. I just had a client this week that was sharing with me, I’m so frustrated.
We have email, people text my own personal cell phone, I have Slack going, you know, we’re on Zoom, and then somebody sends me a WebEx and it is out of control. Oh, and she’s on Wrike, which is like a project management software. And there’s other ones that I use Basecamp other people use Asana or Monday or whatever. So what what technology is your cool, scrappy, hip company using? And why should we use it? Or what you know, what have you learned about technology? Give us some some ideas about that, since you love it.
Dan: Yeah, so it’s not a perfect system. I think everybody has what works for them. I mean, I find I live in Evernote, everything that you know, all the meetings that I’m on, easily searchable, I need to be able to have some sort of paper trail. So you know, my life is documented on there. But from a company standpoint, we use Slack as a communication tool, which I really enjoy as well, because all the messages on there are searchable. But more and more, you’d be surprised we’re actually trying to move as much of our formal documentation to email because there is a paper trail.
And so I think a lot is getting lost via digital communication or conversation where it’s not being captured somewhere. And for me, I mean, my memory is not as good as I wish it was. It is helpful to be able to search keywords or try and get our memory jogged on, on what that looked like. One of the one other tool I’ll call out, we use something called Fellow. So it’s spelled as it sounds. It’s a meeting agenda and note taking tool. And so if you integrate it with your calendar it essentially creates what are you know, fellow notes for that meeting. And so I use that for all of my team one on ones. When we have big meetings, and we want someone to take notes, we document it in there.
And again, it’s similar to some of the other tools I’m talking about. It’s just documentation of the different things we’re trying to achieve. One of the action items that come out of that, and how do we make sure that doesn’t get lost. And specifically, for one on ones, I would say, for leaders out there, make sure you’re coming into one on ones with your team members having an agenda and put the burden of that on your team member. Because the lens I look at that through is hey, team member, this is your time to leverage me as much as possible.
And I want you to construct this agenda to benefit whatever I can unblock you on, when it comes to your work. So a tool like Fellow is great for that. But make sure in general, you know, they’re giving you some lead time when it comes to that agenda. Because, you know, you want them to get the most of that time and make sure that for some managers, if you have a lot of direct reports, you can’t spend as much individual time with your team members, make sure to maximize the impact of that as much as possible.
Nicole: That’s fantastic. Okay, so don’t miss that everybody. He’s having one on ones with his people. He’s using Fellow to keep track of those things. And he’s putting the onus on his team member to say, this is what I want to talk about. Here’s the agenda I put together. Yeah, I think that is fantastic. And then also he threw it in there real quick, Evernote, but he don’t miss. He said his whole life is on Evernote. So check it out. That’s a and again, everything needs to be searchable. Now, I was talking to a gal that I’m coaching. And she was like, went on this little rant about how the Google Drive is not easily searchable.
She’s like, you know, have you ever sat down here and you’re trying to find a document, she said, I knew I had a document that was like, personal development. And she said, when I finally found it, the thing was called development personal or whatever, it was some backwards thing. And she’s like, she’s like, what the heck is that about? I’m like, I think I think I experienced that. Have you experienced this with your Google Drive?
Dan: Sure, I’ve experienced this with every tool, because you totally forget what meeting you’re in, or what it’s called, or something like that. So, you know, that’s what I mean. Like, you can find the perfect tool, but you really gotta gotta put some consideration into how you name things. And how do you keep format similar. So as much as we want technology to solve all of our problems, unfortunately, the reality is a lot of us, or a lot of the work does fall on us.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so it sounds like you guys are building an amazingly vibrant culture over there. What do you guys have in the works for the future? What are the what are some things you are going to add? Or you’re hoping to do if you were to talk a little bit about your vision? Because I think you guys are probably incredible visionaries and do a lot of vision nearing? What are you guys hoping to do in the future? Now, all Kotn employees. This is a vision, you know, people are like, I can’t tell them what we’re thinking about doing. What if we don’t do it? And I’m like, they would rather know what we’re hoping for than think we’re not doing a darn thing. So what are you guys hoping for over there at Kotn?
Dan: Yeah, so I mean, the name of the game for us right now is just continue growing. And growth really does afford us to increase our impact and scope. Because the more that we can grow, obviously, the greater influence we can have in terms of the number of lives we touch. So that’s one of the beautiful things about the ecosystem we built is, is growth affords us so many opportunities when it comes to building more schools, extending our supply chain, etc. I’ll kind of walk you through the vision on on the Kotn supply side of things where, you know, we’re expanding our supply chain to enable companies to tap into.
What I would love to do there is continue to enable different use cases for people to to access our supply chain, because I think the hardest thing for brands or anyone selling a physical good is how do you make it. You know, for entrepreneurs out there, people looking to start companies like the reality of actually going out and having to make something is very difficult. And so today, we’re starting with employee swag, we’re talking we’re starting with, you know, custom merchandise for creators and influencers etc.
But I’d love down the road to to open our supply chain up in sort of making this open source asset that other people can tap into, in order to make goods that are of high quality, ethical and sustainable as well. So that is that is the grander vision. I think we’re gonna get there, I’m quite confident, but baby steps are needed, right? You kind of need to take things one thing at a time. And so let’s work with companies to make their merchandise even better. And then in the future, let’s work with companies to make their products even better.
Nicole: Mm hmm. So to be like a worldwide resource, right? Like so like maybe Ralph Lauren would call you up and say, let’s buy let’s buy cotton from these guys to make our polo shirt. Is that what you’re talking about?
Dan: We don’t. We don’t need credit. Ralph can take all the credit. As long as as long as his customers are getting a product that’s up to the quality that, you know we hold ourselves to. And again, it comes from those same ethical and sustainable standards and that would that would be an awesome world. Just to have that sort of seal of approval. We would love to be that. That’s a grand vision, but again, something that I don’t think is too crazy.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I’ve got two questions for you left. The next one is like, I just want to kind of hear a little bit about your people philosophy. You know, you said you, you’ve succeeded by building great teams, challenging assumptions and making learning happen along the way. So tell me a little bit about your, your, your people philosophy. I think leaders in general, Dan, they need to have a philosophy. Because, again, it goes back to you ask people, what’s your leadership philosophy? They’re like, you know, I got nothing. And it’s like, well, gosh, you really need to think about it. Because you have, you know, 60 scrappy people counting on you today. So, yeah, so, so you got to know and philosophy, you know, you could put coinciding beliefs, you know, blah, blah, blah, right. So what’s your what’s your people philosophy?
Dan: I think it’s a little radical, to be honest. So my belief system is, we used to exist in a world where employers held all the power. People stayed at companies for a really long time. And there really wasn’t a lot of leverage from an employee standpoint. And so we’re shifting into this paradigm now, where, especially in tech, I can’t speak to the entire job market, but at least the sector that I’m in, it really is a competitive job market for employees. And they’re able to get opportunities and move around in a way that, you know, they weren’t able to a few decades ago. And so what that’s done is that shifted that power towards the employee.
And I love that because it empowers them, to find opportunities that excite them, it affords them growth opportunities and acceleration in their career, that might not have been there before. And so when it comes to my leadership style, I view it through that lens. When someone joins me, and even before they join, I usually have this conversation throughout the interview process, or, you know, before they sign the offer, I ask, okay, what do you want to do after Kotn? What is your dream job after Kotn? Let’s assume that, you know, two or three years down the line, you want to do something different? What’s the next job that we can work towards?
And I hope, I really hope as a leader that we can find that for you here at Kotn. But I also know there’s a reality that that might not exist. And so usually, the employee will will tell me, okay, I want to become a manager for x. And I’ll say, okay, why? And like, what excites you about that? What skills do you need, you think you need to be able to achieve that. And so when it comes to leading them, I now have this viewpoint where it’s like, okay, I know where they want to get next. Not like, I’m going to pigeonhole them into where I’ve put them today, it’s okay, there’s a job description that they have to achieve. I’m not, I’m not saying hey, go and forego your entire job to start working towards your next career.
Nicole: You do have to have social media posts today. That’s got to get done.
Dan: Exactly. You still have a job. But it’s over the course of your relationship with an employee. And I think most leaders have encountered this, there’s always stretch opportunities. There’s always projects that they can work on that become really great milestones for them. And if you know where they’re working towards, it becomes much easier to identify the right person for the right opportunity in order to set them up for success in the future. And again, my hope is that by cultivating that, and by allowing them and nurturing sort of the skills that they want to grow in, they’ll be really successful post their experience working for me.
And, you know, I selfishly think there’s, there’s value to that for me too, because it means that I’m able to grow my network, and I’m able to put employees out there in the world that also lead like this. And, you know, I, I’m excited by what they can do beyond their interaction with me, because I know, again, the power is in the employee’s hands, and I can’t hold them hostage and expect them to be here forever.
Nicole: Yeah, that’s, that’s so fantastic. Yeah. So I had three things pop in my brain while you were talking. Because what he’s saying is so important, y’all. First thing is, that’s how we talk in Concord, North Carolina. We say y’all, Dan, just FYI. So what somebody was telling me about, I guess, Bill Belichick is, is, uh, I don’t know what the deal is. So like, he wins all these Super Bowls, but then I’ll mentioned it, and I’m not a football person. So I, you know, I half know what I’m talking about right here. But here’s the thing. Somebody told me that, you know, his process of recruiting and training and making football players was so fantastic that people would forego, like a process and go try to, you know, to be on that team, and give up like maybe millions of dollars somewhere else, because they just wanted to be on the best team or whatever.
And so he was all about making the best people. And somebody said, well, aren’t you afraid you’re gonna put all these people through your program, and they’re gonna leave? And his answer was, no, because everybody’s talking about the Patriots. And so that is not a problem in the world. And so wouldn’t that be wonderful if word got out on the street that oh, where did you where do you get you know, where do you learn your business acumen? Where did you come through? Oh, I work for this guy named Dan Gray at Kotn. And he was a boss and a half, meaning fantastic. And he led the way we did major sustainable, responsible, ethical things. Oh my god. So beautiful.
Dan: Yeah, I love that, first of all, thank you for a name drop that I can finally resonate with and recognize. But no, I think that’s I think that’s amazing. Like, really, as a company grows you want people to leave as ambassadors and not leave with any sort of resentment or a feeling of, you know, my growth and my career trajectory was constrained here so I think I think you and Bill put it very, very nicely.
Nicole: Yeah. And I’m just going to tell this real quick story where you humor me, Dan, if I tell this. So I don’t know if I’ve told it on the podcast yet. But I couldn’t. I couldn’t tell you which episode it was. But I had this I had, I had a need where I started working, and I got busy. And I saw I needed somebody to clean my home. Now. I think I was probably 44 years old before I ever had somebody else come in to clean my house. I did everything. Are y’all with me. So anyway, so I did everything. Well, I asked my neighbor who was very fancy, and has had this housekeeper for a very long time. I said, can I have her name? And she said, Sure. So long story short, this woman comes and cleans my house.
But she gives me this invoice, Dan, that says like cobwebs on chandelier, removed from foyer, got a ladder from the garage. I mean, she wrote all this stuff like she she straightened me out. My house was never so clean. Not that it was dirty. But it was like she organized me. She was completely over the top. And so one day I like I got the third invoice and I just said to her listen, what are you doing cleaning houses? You should probably do something you should do bookkeeping or something. And she’s like, oh, I never thought of that before. And that’s the other thing about the one on ones with your employees. Who do they have to have these conversations with about who they want to be when they grow up.
They go home to their spouse, their spouse, you know, just wants to make dinner and cuddle on the couch or whatever you want to do. But you don’t have this person to have this conversation. So anyways, long story short, I said, if you go to the community college, I’ll pay for you to learn QuickBooks, and you can do my QuickBooks, and clean my house. Well, long story short, now she lives in Wilmington. She’s getting her CPA, and she has all these clients. And she is just where, I mean it that see that’s so stinking fun. Dan, do you see what I’m saying?
Dan: That’s awesome. I love that story. The only thing I can think about though is you just talked your neighbor out of a perfectly great cleaning lady. I hope you made it up to her.
Nicole: Oh, she and she did not belong there at all. Anyway, so I’m just telling you, it’s so fun to become a legacy for somebody or somebody that yeah, and it sounds like your company is going to be a legacy company too, which is so fantastic. All right. And I know they’re lucky to have you. Alright, last thing. Last thing, here we go. All right. So I know somebody out there is listening. And they’re like, okay, so this is such good information. I wish Dan would give me one more nugget. One more little. You know, drop me a little goodie. And right now, Dan’s puppy is circling him going take me outside. Let’s see the puppy.
Dan: Yeah, he’s ready.
Nicole: What is it? What kind of puppy do you have?
Dan: He’s a rescue pup. We don’t exactly know what what is. And, yeah, his name is Atticus. He’s two and he’s awesome.
Nicole: Oh, that’s awesome. And I see Grogu back there too, Grogu. Cool. Okay, all right. Oh, and I’m a Star Wars person, Dan, we can have an aside on that later. So may the force be with you. All right. So give us one, one last one last little download, what’s the thing you would like us to take away and know about you? We’re going to, we’re going to all go to kotn.com. Check out your company. We’re going to think about whether or not we need a polo shirt from you get you in our, be part of our supply chain. And he needs a business, no a sales manager? Did I get it? Right?
Dan: You got it.
Nicole: Okay, so he’s got lots and lots of things that he can help you with people. All right. So give us the last download.
Dan: Yeah, two, I’ll say two things was, if you’re looking for a way to enhance your culture, I would say again, I would be remiss not to plug Kotn Supply and say, you know, having swag or cultural tokens that drive ambassadorship and drive a connection to your business. That goes a really long way. And so, you know, Kotn Supply could definitely enable you for that. So I apologize for the shameless plug. But when it comes to leadership, I think the thing I wish someone told me was, in order to be a good leader, you really have to get yourself right. It’s hard to take on other people’s emotions and other people’s baggage when you aren’t prepared to address or handle your own.
And so, when it comes to being a strong leader, just look in the mirror every day and think about what do I need. Make sure you’re getting that from your boss or getting that from your loved ones, and you come into work fully ready to embrace what other people need because, again, when it comes to being a leader, a lot of it is listening. It’s hearing people out. It’s taking in their emotions. And so if you’re not right, it’s not gonna get right with them. So, yeah, I think that’s, that’s where I would start.
Nicole: Hmm, yeah. Okay, so this, this, I’m just gonna say this real quick people. So you know, my coaching methodology everybody, it is SHINE. If you shine, you’re gonna build a vibrant culture. Okay, so here’s the shine coaching methodology. First thing I do is self assessment. That is what Dan just said, look in the mirror, what is up with you today? And then the H is habits. What habits do you have in place that are going to move you forward, move your company forward? Are you in integrity today. Dan talked all about having an ethical, credible, wonderful organization that you can be proud of proud to work for.
And then next right step. So he talked about how important the vision is envisioning. And then we already talked about energy, which Dan has a boatload of because he’s passionate and he loves to discuss and debate and build teams and challenge assumptions and all those things. So look, if you shine you’re gonna build a vibrant culture and Dan today on the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. You totally were shining, and I’m so grateful.
Dan: Thank you. Thanks, y’all. Did I get that right? Is my y’all up to snuff?
Nicole: Hey, everybody here in Concord will understand that that’s good. Hey, and Dan, if you ever get to Concord, North Carolina it’s by Charlotte please look me up. I gotta guestroom, I love, you can bring Atticus I like the puppies and, and all. You’re like probably the same age as my kids. So come on over. Everybody. You can find Dan at, let’s see, he’s on Twitter twitter.com. His handle is Growing Gray. And you can also find him on LinkedIn. Dan Gray put in his company name K O T N Koth. All right. So everybody check that out. Thanks again, so much for being on the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast.
Dan: All right, thank you.
Voiceover: Ready to build your vibrant culture? Bring Nicole Greer to speak to your leadership team, conference or organization to help them with her strategies, systems and smarts to increase clarity, accountability, energy and results. Your organization will get lit from within. Email Nicole@nicolegreer.com. And be sure to check out Nicole’s TEDx talk at nicolegreer.com.
