We’ve all been told to “think outside of the box”…
But when it comes to leadership, there is no box…
There is no one way to be a leader—so where do we start?
Marisa and Simon Cleveland are here to discuss their book, There is No Box: A Practical Guide for the Relatable Leader.
Marisa and Simon believe that today’s leaders need to develop cultural agility, and they want to help you reimagine leadership development.
Listen as they share:
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The 5 ways leaders can cultivate relatability
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The meaning of non-hierarchical leadership
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Perspectives on “can leadership be taught?”
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The difference between compassion and communication
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What leaders need to understand about positionality
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And more
Mentioned in this episode:
Transcript
Marisa Cleveland: We don’t all come with the same experiences and knowledge to the table. So when you have a boss that says think outside the box, you’re all thinking outside of what your own box is. But your box is different from everyone else. And so there’s really we were just like, you know what, there, there really is no box.
Voiceover: You’re listening to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast with professional speaker, coach and consultant Nicole Greer.
Nicole Greer: Welcome everybody to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. My name is Nicole Greer and they call me the vibrant coach and I am here with double treble today. Two Clevelands in the house. The Clevelands are the co-authors of the leadership book, There is No Box. Simon Cleveland is a Doctor of Education and has over more than 20 years of experience in the fields of corporate and government leadership. Listen to this, higher education administration, project management, information systems technology management.
So that should be all of you listening fall into one of those categories for sure, I bet. With more than two decades in the education and publishing industries, his sidekick and you know, he can’t live without her, Marisa Cleveland. She is also a Doctor of Education and is the executive director for the Seymour Agency and a New York Times and USA Today best-selling author. I got major genius in the house today. Hey you guys. How are you? Welcome to the show.
Marisa: Thank you so much for having us.
Simon Cleveland: Thank you so much, Nicole. Appreciate it.
Nicole: Yeah, so good to have you guys. All right. And are you guys down in Naples, Florida, or is that where you are today?
Simon: Yes, that’s where we are today. Yes.
Nicole: Okay. All right. Well, how are things down there? Have we survived all the hurricanes? Are you guys okay back down there? How’s everybody doing? How are our Florida friends anyways?
Simon: Weather is wonderful and it seems like everybody’s coming back and regaining their strength and composure and homes are being cleaned and they’re smiles on the streets with you know, people are enjoying themselves now. So it seems like we all weathered the storm perfectly.
Nicole: Oh, that’s fantastic. All right. So there’s a testimony for real resiliency. All right. I love that. Okay, so we’re going to talk about your book, and I just want to hold it up here, make sure everybody sees it. There is No Box: A Practical Guide for the Relatable Leader. So my first question right out of the gate is what is a relatable leader? I mean, I could put my own definition on it. But you all are pretty smart. I betcha you dialed it in tight. What is a relatable leader?
Marisa: Let me jump in. Okay. Relatability, works in two ways for effective leaders, relating to others and relating to circumstances. And then the third leg of that is others relating to you. So a relatable leader is able to capture all three of those, like stems of leadership.
Nicole: Oh, that’s fantastic. That’s fantastic. Yeah. And I will tell you, I’ve always said that leadership is all about relationships. So how does relationships, is that what you’re saying, you know, like, you got to build relationships with the people and be relatable? Is that what y’all are saying? Tell me a little bit about that.
Simon: Yeah, so what we say is, essentially, is that leaders who have mastered relatability, find that they’re not only able to influence others successfully, but to open up and allow others to influence themselves and learn to embrace how to change in really this dynamic world we live today. And conversely, you know, when we have non-relatable leaders, we find individuals who struggle to kind of connect with others and ignore and recognize the fact that as leaders, they really function in numerous systems.
Daily, in their community, their family, and their organizations. And all these different systems have their own complexity. So if they’re unrelatable, and cannot connect with others, they cannot understand these types of complexities. And then essentially, they fail to integrate and make a lasting impact.
Nicole: That is fantastic. Yeah. So I love this whole idea. Now, I want to talk about the box because again, everybody the title of the book is There is No Box: A Practical Guide for the Relatable Leader. And you know, I didn’t get past the very beginning of the book before I was highlighting things by the way. And you always know it’s a good book, if you’re highlighting. Am I right, everybody? Say yes. Okay, so this is what I read. It said during childhood, we were told to color inside the lines.
And so I can totally relate to that. I sat at many a restaurant table coloring inside the lines, what my parents told me to be quiet. In our 20s are asked to think outside the box. But what if there is no box? So will you all talk a little bit about the proverbial box for a minute, and coloring in and outside the lines and all that good stuff.
Marisa: So for the box, it was interesting because we, when you enter your 20s and your leaders are your supervisors, managers, they’re not all leaders, but your bosses ask you to think outside the box. One of the big things is, how can you know what you don’t know? And so, that component of the importance of diversity in a team with like, gender culture, just industry really matters.
Because at that point, you get to see what you don’t know because someone else will know it. And so the whole concept of there really is no box, because we don’t all come with the same experiences and knowledge to the table. So when you have a boss that says, think outside the box, you’re all thinking outside of what your own box is, but your box is different from everyone else. And so there’s really, we were just like, you know, what, there, there really is no box.
So that’s how the concept kind of developed. And we didn’t figure that out until our 30s. When we were like, taking this long walk downtown, we walk like this whole loop, and we’re just talking about, you know, how do we come up with new ideas? How do we be, you know, unique in the workplace? How can we be innovative? How do we capture best practices?
Nicole: That’s great.
Simon: I wanted to add to what Marisa was saying is that, really, when we talk about a box, we always talk about the boundaries that we are placing on ourselves, right. And so what we are trying to teach through that book and connect with others is to get everybody to recognize that we, over the years have developed our own boundaries, our own biases.
And the more we become aware of what these biases are, the more we will be able to overcome them through, obviously, reflection and thinking through some of these biases, and some of these barriers that we have enacted. And then it will help us recognize when we start communicating with others, and developing these trusting relationships with others, some of the biases that they have created.
And so we can effectively influence each other to overcome these so that we can become more relatable and influence each other more in this environment where we need to exact any kind of change or overcome any kind of difficulties. And that evolves in organizations, improving their efficiencies, projects being more successful, or students in classrooms achieving these learning outcomes that are established.
Nicole: Fantastic, fantastic. Yeah. And then it goes on further to say, and so this is huge, because if you’ve listened to the podcast, which I know all of you faithful listeners have been listening, that I have been collecting definitions of leadership. And so whenever anybody talks about leadership, they start, you know, rattling off all of these traits that leaders need to have. But look, this is what the Clevelands say.
Everybody, get a pen, write this down, stop what you’re doing. Leadership is not a trait, leadership is a lifestyle. So I love that. I totally love that. And I believe that to be true, because you have to do you first, you know, then try to do the people around you. And then you know, maybe the organization or the community or whatever. So will you talk about leadership as a lifestyle. How that’s different from a trait? I love it.
Marisa: Do you want to? I’ll go.
Nicole: These two are so polite to each other. So this is not only a podcast about the book, they’re also demonstrating how to be kind to your spouse. All right, excellent leadership skills. Go.
Marisa: The leadership lifestyle is it’s not about finding the right answer. It’s about being willing to have a conversation and to like, critically think and share our ideas. But mostly, it’s about gathering like other people’s ideas, and analyzing why they feel the way they feel so that you can better understand how to have effective conversations with them. So the leadership lifestyle really encompasses like all of our five, well, that’s one of the five strategies for increased cultivating your relatability. But it really breaks into that non-hierarchical piece where you know, leaders can be found anywhere.
Nicole: I agree. Absolutely. Okay. So go ahead.
Simon: Oh, yeah. This is excellent. What Marisa said. And essentially what we are asking, everybody who’s kind of going through that existential reflection on what really is a relatable leader, and how can they be better leaders is to think about the fact that you do not need to behave differently at home versus in your organization. If you embrace the leadership lifestyle, then you are going to act the same way everywhere, with your friends, with your community, with your family, with your colleagues.
And then you will not be positioning yourself in any type of artificial traits, as you mentioned, Nancy, but really kind of embrace who you truly are. Embrace that leadership lifestyle and live it daily. You don’t have to pretend to be somebody else. Just be yourself.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, so funny. I, one of the things I do in my business is I do recruiting and so one of the questions that I start out with every time or the question I start out with every time is, tell me all about yourself. And so immediately people say, you mean my personal life or my professional life? And I’m thinking to myself, there’s only one life, you got one. And it’s all wound up at a big fat ball. You know, it’s like a ball of yarn. You know, hopefully, when you pull on it, everything comes out smooth.
But, I mean, it’s just one big life. So I couldn’t agree more with that. And what I really heard Simon just say, and well let me just say what Marissa just said that I think you need to write this down. Relatable leaders need to be willing to have a conversation. And I will tell you so many leaders are so worried about the strategy and the budget and the numbers and the stuff. And none of that stuff’s gonna happen without the conversation.
And then I loved what Simon said. He said, you know, basically, I’m gonna, I’m gonna change his words, I’m gonna put words in his mouth, but he said it was okay. You got to have a consistent set of behaviors throughout your entire day, your entire life. That’s leadership as a lifestyle. Ah, so good. Okay, so Marissa is ahead of me, all right. But here’s the thing she said one of these leadership is a lifestyle is one of their five ways that leaders can cultivate their reliability.
So we got to go through these, I think this is imperative. So number one, okay, let me say it again. Relatable leaders cultivate their relatability in five ways. The first one is they know their starting lines. Okay, what in the world does that mean? I read, but they’re gonna tell us. Okay, go ahead.
Marisa: So it’s the positionality. So it’s from where you came. And we all like, as we were talking about the box at the table before, we all come with different experiences and childhood behaviors. And I think one of the things like, for example, I grew up as a South Korean adopted at from three months old into a white Catholic, New England family. So I went to private, parochial school and growing up, I just, you know, grew up the way that I thought that I would grow up.
And then when I hit college, and I was thrown into like, these different experiences in Northern Virginia with other cultures that didn’t grow up with the same like cartoons as I did, or expectations as I did, or even like, you know, picking up after yourself or making your bed or just having a top sheet under your quilt. Like some people didn’t have that sheet, they just had the fitted sheet and then the quilt that I’m like, where’s the flat sheet.
And so that’s really the starting lines. Because once you know your own starting lines, you can start to see how other people’s starting lines affect the way they communicate with you. And one thing I do want to throw out there is these five strategies are not in line. Like they’re not linear. You can be, you know, learning how to have compassionate communication at the same time, you can be understanding your starting lines.
And so again, once you understand yours, you can understand other people’s and start to be like, oh, well, they grew up, you know, in a city. So in an apartment where they know how to wait for an elevator, but they also know that they have to like, squeeze in and you know, be respectful of people’s space.
Versus somebody who may have grown up in a huge house and just will come flop down right beside you and be like, hi, right up in your space. So that’s part of the starting lines is, is understanding where you come from and understanding where other people come from as well, so you can better understand them.
Nicole: I think that’s so genius. One of the things I use in my group coaching when I’m working with teams is I use this thing I call vibrant identity. I don’t know, I picked it up, you know, you pick up stuff, I bet y’all have drawers full of stuff and files full of stuff on your computer that you’re like, oh that’s good, maybe I’ll use that someday. I have all these things. So I picked this thing up, and I have just used it and used it used it.
But essentially it talks about, you know, like what you were given when you popped on the planet. You know, and you’ll have the team members on the team put, you know, they’ll put on there like exactly what you said, you know, and then the second circle says, what are the things you’ve chosen in this lifetime so far? And then like, who are you at the core?
And I love that as an exercise to illustrate starting line because when people talk about where they come from, you get so much respect for them. Like this, you know? Yeah. So I mean, I can’t imagine, you know, your journey, but I would love to hear about it. Right? That’s so important. Okay. All right. Sorry, I get all excited about where people come from and their stories.
Alright, number two, but again, it’s not linear. You can do any of these in any order at any time. Multitasking even so. Okay, so people who are relatable leaders cultivate more relatability by increasing their cultural agility. All right, let’s do that one. Now we’re talking my language, build a vibrant culture. How do we do that guys?
Simon: Well, to a degree, cultural agility comes from understanding not only your own personal culture, but the culture of others. So in this particular society today, we live and work together with individuals from many different cultures. Even though if they weren’t maybe born in the United States, they grew up in a culture with maybe parents who were first-generation immigrants here who spoke a different language. They have their own customs, they have their own holidays.
And so leaders who are the most effective, who are really relatable are the ones who embrace the fact that these individuals come with their own different set of cultural traits. And they need to understand and learn about these different types of cultures. And they need to embrace that, and welcome that and celebrate it with them. You know, all of us come from a different environment. Just like Marisa mentioned, she was adopted, I actually came to the United States when I was 16, from a different country from Eastern Europe.
And so I had to adapt to the culture in the United States, but I retained some of my own cultural traits and beliefs. And so those have influenced me when I have managed and directed and led others. But I have always been cognizant of those and have been interested in learning about what other people’s cultural traits are, and beliefs and systems are so that I can be more effective when I influence them and allow them to influence me.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I can’t agree more. And I think, you know, one thing that’s really interesting, like, if I think about my own family, I haven’t traveled all that many places. You know, I mean, like, I haven’t been, I went to London, I went to right over the border to Mexico out of California. I don’t know if that counts. And then I went to Windsor, Canada. You know what I mean, like, I haven’t been in many places.
But this next generation, like my kiddos, who are 23 and 30, they have been so many places, and they have so many friends. So one of the things about our globalization is it is like placing the these next generations in a place where like, they’re naturally curious and want to know it, and you know, that kind of thing. So I think that this is going to be something that we need to be more intentional about if you’re kind of in my age bracket.
And then really appreciating what you get to experience if you’re, you know, a millennial or younger. All right, I love that. All right, number three, they practice compassionate communication. So I think this is huge. And I think compassion is missing, we have a lot of judgment out there in the world. A lot of taking sides or being on a side of this subject or that subject. So how can we have compassionate communication? Talk to me about that. That’s number three.
Marisa: I actually love this one, because for a long time, I entered into the debate of whether leadership can be taught or not.
Nicole: Talk about that. Wait, bunny trail. Let’s talk about that. Can leadership be taught?
Marisa: I think relatable leadership can be taught. Now, only after working with Simon for the past decade and listening to him lecture for the past, you know, decade and a half. But I previously did not. I used to be like, oh, they’re just a bad leader, and they’re never gonna get better. But now, because Simon is very empathetic, and like, I’m talking about him like he’s not there. He’s very empathetic, which means that like, somebody on his team, you know, is having a bad day, he can feel that.
But in order for him to move beyond that, and become an even stronger leader, he had to learn compassion, because you can’t teach empathy. You can’t teach someone to feel bad for you. And I, sorry to say, not very empathetic for a lot of things. But I have compassion. So if you break your leg, and we’re going in a mall, and there’s stairs, I have compassion, where I’m like, you probably can’t get up the stairs with a broken leg quite easily. Let’s go find an elevator. Or, you know, how can I best help you.
But empathy would be able to be able to like, feel that pain of like, oh, my gosh, your leg is broken, how difficult it must be. And that’s something that people need to work on. And in an instinctual moment, you may not feel. Well, one of the ways that I watched Simon shift from empathy from being an empathetic leader to a compassionate one was when multiple people on his team felt different things.
Like anger, joy, sadness, because of like their outside life falling apart, or, you know, something happening, or they just won an award. And, and so if you’re empathetic, and you’re feeling all these emotions all at once you as the leader, you need to be able to control that. So by practicing compassionate communication, he can enter into every experience, and now I’m cultivating that within myself. Where I am not influenced by the mood of the people on my team, but I can understand where their moods are coming from and how best to bring the team back together, or the other person or whatever.
It also is that piece where you’re sitting there and you think, you know, everyone’s doing the best they can. They’re not malicious, you don’t want to think somebody’s out to be negative on purpose. And so that compassionate communication just kind of shifts the way you view things, so that you’re not so angry all the time. About other people being angry all the time.
Nicole: Yeah, because here’s the thing about emotions. They’re catching. It’s like, yeah, you know, it’s like a disease or a virus or something. Right, you know, so, I think what I’m hearing you say, versus like, Simon has the sixth sense where he can go, oh, he’s upset. Oh, and he doesn’t judge it. He just gets in there. And maybe what we do is what I often advise people is like, ask a powerful question. Or you know, slow things down for a hot second before we move on. You know. So it sounds like that little bit of emotional intelligence plays into this as well. So Simon, how’d you learn to do all this?
Simon: You mentioned the word emotional intelligence. And it has been a process, but essentially, going through that exercise of learning to listen about other people and asking, you know, inquisitive questions, with the intent to really open up yourself to what the needs of others are.
And then how can you be more influential, if that individual is struggling with some sort of a difficulty in their personal life, and is not open to understand what you are attempting to convey in terms of, you know, let’s say organizational values or, you know, market needs or your project or your class you’re teaching at that time with students that are struggling through difficult challenges.
So it’s important to listen and to ask them what, what, what are some of these issues, and then help them to resolve these issues so that they can take their minds off of that. So that you can really focus on what’s important at that moment that you want to influence and convey to them, and they can understand that. Otherwise, it’s just a parties talking to each other and nobody listening.
Nicole: Yes, absolutely. I know that that is that is a big issue. And, you know, here’s the thing, though, you know. Sometimes when I’m coaching an executive, they’ll say to me, you know, I shouldn’t have to do that. You know, I shouldn’t have to figure out what’s going on in somebody’s personal life. You know, they’re here to work today. You know, you know, and I’m like, okay, well, this is what you have in front of you, you have this person with a certain genius, or you wouldn’t have hired them.
And so they’re completely human. And so sometimes we have to slow down to the speed of, dare I say, this word, to the speed of our soul, you know, and love somebody a little bit, and then they can help them rally. And really, it’s the leaders that do that, that are relatable, don’t miss it, everybody. But also, like, we love them long term. Like I’ve got only like, out of all the leaders I’ve ever had, I mean, I got like, maybe two that I’m like, they were awesome.
The rest of them were like, meh. I mean, just think about your just think about the leaders you’ve had over you, right. Okay, so I think that’s really important. Okay, fantastic, everybody. That was number three, practice compassionate communication. And so now we’re gonna go to number four, which is relatable leaders cultivate their relatability by embracing the leadership lifestyle, and we talked about that just a little bit ago.
Don’t forget that this is somebody who’s willing to have a conversation, we only got one life, and we have a consistent set of behaviors. So can you, do you have a story of somebody maybe that you’ve worked with, or maybe even your own story of how you personally tried to do this leadership lifestyle? I think it’s worth touching on it one more time.
Marisa: Oh, I have a great story. Chief Stephanie Spell, she’s the highest-ranked female chief in the Collier County Sheriff’s Office. And we were just out one day chatting. And so it was funny because it’s it’s in there under I think ethical, the ethical leadership section, but it’s shopping carts. So there’s no law. And there was one being brought up in California that they were trying to make a legislation for this. But there’s no law about where you leave your shopping cart.
And like in Aldi’s you have to put in like a quarter and then if you return it, you get your quarterback and you know, there’s different things. But she uses this to gauge a person. If they’re if they are leading a leadership lifestyle, because who wants to have a cart like in the space where you’re about to park, and then you go to park and you know if they could roll or ding or whatnot.
So one of the stories of leading the leadership lifestyle, you know, how Simon mentioned earlier about acting one way at work and another at home, but keeping it consistent. Building up that authenticity. Is not leaving that cart there but also doing it because it’s right. It’s like that piece of integrity like doing it because it’s right, not because you’re being held accountable, or it’s a law or anything.
So that’s one of the stories that I have. Because when she told me that I started, like looking at everybody now, like, I mean, they built these corrals. And so I’m like, oh, that person brought it back. And yeah, we could be anybody. You know, a kid could run it back or, you know, adults, someone in a suit, someone in the know, high heels, and so I just started looking. I was like, oh, that’s really interesting. Like it was really neat to see that.
Nicole: Yeah. And you know, the other thing that just went right in my brain is that, you know, the idea of putting a quarter in and getting a quarterback out. Now people who have a leadership lifestyle, one of the things that’s so important in business and in organizations and in your personal life is like money management. And I see people be so like, flippant or, dare I say this irresponsible with their money, but like that’s even a measure of, you know, you could just blow off a quarter. Well, if you blow off a quarter, do you blow off 50 bucks.
Do you but you know what I mean? Like, you know, it’s kind of this attitude towards money or responsibility. I mean, there’s like two things going on there. I returned it, and I’m making a good fiscal decision. So I don’t know. I think it’s really interesting. I love that. I’m gonna, I’m gonna totally use that. I’m going to use the shopping cart. Now what was that gal’s name again? Chief what?
Marisa: Stephanie Spell.
Nicole: Okay. All right. I work with lots of law enforcement. I love these people. They’re so fantastic. Yeah, I just did law enforcement management academy up here in North Carolina. Just last week. Yeah, fantastic, folks. All right. So number five. Number five, we’re gonna bring it home here. Relatable leaders cultivate their reliability in five ways. And this one is they view leadership is non-hierarchical. You don’t have to spell it, you just need to know it. Okay. So what does that mean?
Marisa: The big one. I mean, it combines with the leadership lifestyle, like Simon had mentioned earlier, but the big one is that you can find a leader in anywhere in your organization, not just by your title. And one of the things that I was fortunate enough to overhear him lecturing once, because when the pandemic hit, and he was doing a lecture from home and, or a recording, I’m not sure.
But he brought up the fact that as a project manager, you’re leading people, but you’re also managing teams. But those people on those teams may not report to you, they may be from functional areas. So like somebody from finance, someone from operations, someone from IT, they’ll all be part of his team. And so he needs to recognize, which he does, because I heard it in the lecture, that all these different people are leaders in their own capacity.
And when they show up to his team, they’re the leaders for that group. And, you know, the person who might be just a budget, not just a budget, who may be a budget analyst at work, may also be like, the director of the Girl Scout troops. One of my best friends is.
Nicole: That’s a good organization. I was a Girl Scout. Absolutely. That’s a fantastic organization.
Marisa: So that’s one of the things, that’s awesome. I love that. Yeah, I love that she’s, you know, a leader in the Girl Scouts, and she has all these people looking up to her, but yet at work, she’s like, oh, I’m not a leader. I’m like, but you are.
Nicole: Marisa, this is this is a big problem out there. People don’t think they’re leaders. Either A, they’re worried about the fear of being labeled that, that they might have to do something spectacular, or something. Which we would like that, but like, you know, just do the leadership lifestyle. Right. And then the other thing is, is that people think that you have to have the title. So what you’re saying is absolutely huge. Simon, did you want to add to that?
Simon: Yeah, no, Nicole, that was a good discussion here. What we were talking about in our book was also in this particular section, that we encourage leaders to get involved with their own communities that they live in, because there’s plenty of opportunities to meet with individuals who are passionate about various types of community projects.
Like you know, when I was working for Accenture, for example, we were involved in charity events for you know, painting renovated homes for those who experienced homelessness or, you know, pouring wine at charity events, or, you know, society for leukemia and lymphoma, when we were doing the walk for that.
So and this brings all these individuals from different walks of life, just like Marisa talked about. The different types of functions in organizations that you may not have an actual contact with otherwise. But then you can actually learn from them. And you can kind of bridge these gaps in an organization where typically you have a hierarchy. But in a community-related event, you are really not having to deal with these types of boundaries.
And so you strip away these types of hierarchies. You embrace that relatability through connecting through a different project for the community, or community leadership development programs. Those are also great ways to meet with other leaders and other individuals and just learn what makes them best at who they are, and then become more relatable subsequently.
Nicole: Yeah, and so I have a piece of advice around all of that getting involved with things outside of your workplace. So one thing I would say, everybody is, there’s an organization called Rotary. It is an amazing organization. A lot of people don’t know about it. I was a Rotarian for many, many years and it helped my career my business enormously. So young people, old people, like everybody go out and join Rotary.
The second thing I want to say about that is, whatever industry you’re in, they usually have an association. And those associations are dying for leaders to join up and help and lead committees. Number three, go get up in your chamber of commerce. Please, please, please, please support your organization by showing up and then support the people that are in your local area. T
his is what we call, you know, good stewardship getting involved with the local economy. Okay, so lots of ways to do that. So Simon, I love that. Okay, now, last thing I want to do is we’re at the end of our time, but here’s the thing people like, no, no, no, don’t stop. So I know you must have one last nugget. Because everyone’s like, give us another nugget. Quick before you go. What’s one more thing you would leave our audience with?
Marisa: Quick, okay. We stress the importance that you are the CEO of your own life. So the decisions you make, the responsibilities of your actions, everything, it all comes down to, you.
Nicole: Ah, I love that. And that is absolutely absolutely the truth. Okay, now, here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna show the book again. There is No Box: A Practical Guide For a Relatable Leader. Marisa Cleveland and Simon Cleveland, it has been my joy to have you on the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. How can everybody find you and get up with you? I bet you they can go to the Google or to the Amazon and get this. Am I right?
Marisa: Yes. Oh, thank you so much for having us on your show. It was amazing.
Simon: Thank you, Nicole. Appreciate it.
Nicole: Thank you. All right they’re on LinkedIn. Check them out. It’s Simon Cleveland and Marisa Cleveland. Everybody have a great day.
Marisa: Bye, thanks.
Simon: Bye bye.
Voiceover: Ready to build your vibrant culture? Bring Nicole Greer to speak to your leadership team, conference or organization to help them with her strategies, systems and smarts to increase clarity, accountability, energy and results. Your organization will get lit from within. Email Nicole@nicolegreer.com. And be sure to check out Nicole’s TEDx talk at nicolegreer.com.
