As leaders, we are called to make high-stakes decisions…
It can be stressful to make decisions when you can’t predict what will happen…
(And when your team is relying on you to make the right call)…
But what if there were practical techniques to make decisions in the face of uncertain outcomes?
My guest, Everett Harper, is here to discuss his book Move to the Edge, Declare it Center.
In the book, Everett outlines practices and processes for creatively solving complex problems in high-pressure environments.
Everett also shares his wisdom on recovery time from work and why DEI can’t just be a side project for businesses.
Mentioned in this episode:
Transcript
Everett Harper: Learning to ask better questions, and to lead with curiosity and inquiry leads you to both innovation but also the personal experience of I don’t know the answer. And that as a leader becomes, I think, an incredibly powerful tool to model for the team.
Voiceover: You’re listening to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast with professional speaker, coach and consultant Nicole Greer.
Nicole Greer: Welcome everybody to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. My name is Nicole Greer, and they call me the vibrant coach and I am here with Everett Harper. He is the CEO and co-founder of Truss, a human-centered software development company named as an Inc 5000 fastest growing private company for 2020 and 2021. He is a rare combination of a black entrepreneur, Silicon Valley pedigree, national champion for soccer, and a proven record for solving complex problems with social impact.
I am so lucky to have him on the show. He has had the foresight to build a company that has been remote first since 2011. He didn’t even have to go through that learning curve. And he is all about salary transparency since 2017. And anticipating the importance of hybrid work and diversity, equity and inclusion by a decade. Before Truss, Everett was at Linden Lab, maker of Second Life, a pioneering virtual world and Bain and Company management consultants. Though both his parents had pioneering careers as software programmers for IBM, Everett is the first in his family to attend college.
That’s amazing. As an A.B. Duke Scholar at Duke University, go North Carolina, while majoring in biomedical and electrical engineering at Duke. He was also won the NCAA National Championship in soccer. There it is, he was inducted into the North Carolina Soccer Hall of Fame in 2019 and graduated with an MBA in learning design technology from Stanford University. Welcome to the show, Everett. I could go on there’s like three more paragraphs. Do you sleep? No, I actually read that you have insomnia. That guy doesn’t sleep. He wins soccer awards and he went to Duke. What the heck, you’re amazing.
Everett: Well thanks. We’ll see if people think that at the end of the podcast, so and I will make one update. We just got the new, we started this was, we made the Inc 5000 fastest Growing again this year. So for 2022. So we’ve been there for three years in a row, which has been really cool.
Nicole: Oh, that’s fantastic. Congratulations. Right. So here’s, here’s the first lesson on this podcast, hard work pays off. Is that correct, Everett? Would that, what you would say you attribute your success to? Have y’all been working hard?
Everett: I would say certainly, we’ve been working hard. And I would also add that hard work and recovery are the secret of success. Because as famous athletes who sleep a lot and who understand you need your muscles to recover. Same is true for work. You can work really hard up until a certain point, and then you have to recover. So you can get back to it the next day or the next week. So yeah.
Nicole: Yeah, that’s fantastic. That’s fantastic. Yeah. So what do you do to recover? Do you do the sleep? Do you get on an island? What is the thing that you do to recover? How do you take care of Everett?
Everett: Yeah, so I think first is setting up constraints and expectations, like, okay, we set up an expectation that we do plus or minus 40 hours a week, sometimes you surge. But I think A setting that constraint. B is when I stop work, I try and stop work. So when my daughter was little I was really clear about when breakfast came when she got up, it’s daughter time, until she goes to school. And then I can hit it hard the rest of the day. But when she comes home until she goes to bed, it’s kid time. And so that constraint actually helps me make better choices about what to work on hard. So that’s the second thing.
And it also allows for recovery. I get new stimulation from figuring out what to cook, my what to cook with my daughter, you know, and now she’s 16. So she gets to do it on her own, which is good fun too. And I think the large thing is things like sleep, and exercise and people on this podcast know this. But making a practice out of it is the hard part, at least for me. Because there’s always an opportunity to do something different or do something new, and sometimes you just got to put the pen down.
Nicole: That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. And you talk about habits in this book right here. So everybody he’s got a book called Move to the Edge, Declare it Center and it has got a five star review on Amazon and I have been reading it. I didn’t get through the whole thing full disclosure, Everett, but I got pretty far. It’s, you have to slow down though. Like this is like really good solid information. I nerded out a little bit. My inner researcher was like, this is delicious. So I’d like to talk about your book a little bit, but I am collecting definitions of leadership, because I think it’s such a big conversation to have. So how would you define leadership?
Everett: Hmm. So I’ll give you a complete definition because I think there are different definitions that work in different contexts. The one for me that’s resonating is the ability to create a space for other humans to show their best work and to do their best work and to direct people’s attention towards the most important and highest leverage activities. A good leader does those things.
Nicole: I love it. That’s fantastic. Yes. So I couldn’t agree more. It’s about you know, you got to get the followers taken care of and get them where they need to be. I love that old saying, I know you’ve heard this one. You know, like, if you think you’re leading and you turn around and nobody’s following, you’ve got a big problem with your leadership. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Well, I we talked, you know, hey, everybody, we talked for a few seconds before we got started here. And so we decided we would kind of talk about the book today. So tell me about the title. It’s a cool title. First of all, Move to the Edge and Declare it Center. Everybody think about that in your little brain for a second. That’s cool. Tell me how you got that title.
Everett: I got the title from a Andy Warhol documentary. And the art critic was describing how Andy Warhol became well known, doing pop art, when the entire art ethos in New York in the early 60s was abstract expressionism. He couldn’t get a gig in New York, his first gig was in LA. He came back and he said, okay, I am going to double down, I’m gonna say the art world is going this way, pop art. And I’m going to create a center, I’m going to buy the factory, and I’m going to show people, and I’m going to make everybody else respond to me. And the critic said, he moved to the edge the edge of what the art world was, and then declared it center, and then had everybody respond.
And I really liked that idea, because a lot of what we were trying to do at my company Truss, where we were trying to influence large fortune 100 companies and government agencies to adopt a new way of doing software. Agile development, human centered values driven software. And we felt like if we could demonstrate that it worked, then people would declare it center and move their organizations and their processes towards that outcome. And it’s worked. We had an opportunity to do that, with healthcare.gov. And we’ve been able to do with some of our largest clients, including the Department of Defense Transcom, which is moving almost half a million service members every year and we’re building a product using that ethos. And so that’s, that’s sort of a little bit behind it.
One other coda. I didn’t realize when I named it the book, we named the book this. But Toni Morrison, the author, has a quote from one of her speeches that talked about how she moved to the edge, and waited for the world to come and center around some of the things that she had was writing about and doing. And it’s a wonderful richness that wow, I didn’t even know that Toni Morrison was talking about the same thing. And so it feels like it has some richness and some some legs still to go.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and this is definitely like thought leadership, right, like, so if somebody moves to the edge and declares it center, I mean, like, I’m just thinking, oh, that’s somebody really exercising thought leadership right there.
Everett: Yeah, it’s an interesting way of putting it. It’s trying to, in many ways, I mean, in the book, I talked about moving to the edge. What it means is moving to the edge of your knowledge, or your practices, or your certainty. And then developing systems, declaring center is developing systems to take those new thoughts and innovations and ideas and create an infrastructure so that they can be shared with the rest of the company or the organization. And so what I hope is it goes beyond the thought leader in that I may think of all these things, but I have to be pragmatic and enable others to take it up to play with it to give me feedback and then to use it so the idea spreads.
Nicole: Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. Okay, so you know, we talked like I said before we got started and one of the things that is in your book that I think is so great is that you have this concept of how to make good decisions. It had a great story in there about your, your dad and what you guys had to do. And you know, the the subtitle is practices and processes for creatively solving complex problems. And I think one of the key things for solving problems is you’re going to have to decide. What are we going to do? Right? Okay, so talk to us a little bit, because I know all of us out there like, oh, my gosh, if I could make awesome decisions, that would really help me.
Everett: Yeah, yeah. So I’ll do a slight preamble. Most of, how many of us were taught to give the right answer? You put your hand up, you say it in class, you say it fast, you say it loud, whatever it happens to be. The nature of the problems we’re overcoming now, and we’re dealing with now, in my view, the most important ones. Is there a right answer to climate change? Is there a right answer to a livable city? Is there a right answer to how do you prevent forest fires? There’s so many complex problems.
And that simple notion of the right answer flies in the face of what we are challenged by now. Learning to ask better questions, and to lead with curiosity and inquiry, leads you to both innovation, but also the personal experience of I don’t know the answer. And that as a leader becomes, I think, an incredibly powerful tool to model for the team. I don’t know the answer. Will you follow me anyway? Creating space for other people not to know the answer, and then contribute to what the answer might be. So I think that’s a really important part of the book that I’m trying to, trying to convey.
So what, how does this relate to making decisions? None of us have the complete picture. We all have blind spots. So how do you fill in the blind spots? That’s where it gets into creating diverse teams. How do we make decisions when we don’t have all the information, even with a diverse team, even with intelligent people. So there’s a framework that we use around, it’s based on social psychology and so forth, but the simplest version is, if you have something that’s of high consequence, or sorry, low consequence, and low effort, make it an experiment.
Delegate it, see what happens, try something, it could be wrong, that’s okay. You will learn something. If it’s if it’s a high consequence, problem, and little effort, you probably want to figure, you probably want to manage that a little bit more tightly. And so we go through these quadrants, but the one that is the most interesting is when it’s high consequence, and you want to figure it’s in, you have to make the decision quickly. In other words, the risks associated with making that decision is increasing. That’s where it gets interesting. So here’s the example I tell in the book.
My dad died of stomach cancer. And when he first got it, they had the decision to make whether take out his stomach. Now, that’s a high consequence decision. But there was time before we had to make the decision about whether to do the operation or not. So what do we do? We became experts. We did all this research, we looked at all these different things. We really went deep. But that was the smart call. Because once you make that decision, we have to figure things, there’s no going back, and we had time to make it. Contrast that with a forest fire. If there’s a forest fire coming over the hill, you don’t do a lot of research, you get out.
Nicole: That’s right. Where’s the dog?
Everett: Yeah, right, where’s the dog? Where’s my stuff? And go. That is very much part of decision making, that you can apply to decisions. Sometimes we react. So I certainly talk for myself. I’ve reacted to situations and tried to make a decision too quickly. Without realizing wait a minute, does the risks change now or later. If it’s later, invest in becoming an expert. If it’s now, do the best you can mitigate the risks and act. And that’s sort of a short version of the framework that I try and illuminate. But it’s really one of many practices about how to move and make decisions when you don’t have full information. You don’t have all the answers.
Nicole: Yeah, and you can find his diagram on page 18. I’ve got it dog eared because I’ve been studying it. I’m like, this is really good. So the type of decision that you’re gonna make, you can use his little diagram there to help you do that. And I know you leaders that are listening are like, okay, I’m buying the book. I gotta get to page 18. And I gotta take a picture. Gotta hang it on my wall, so I can use this. Yeah, I think that’s fantastic. Because I think one of the key things leaders do is make decisions, the better ones they make, the better it’ll be for everybody. All right, well, I love that.
And then you know, one of the things that was in your bio and something that you just kind of really naturally said, is you said, you know, you want to surround yourself with people who have, you know, a diverse background and who are diverse. Diversity of thought. So talk to me a little bit about what you’re doing with DEI and how you’re applying it in your work and how you might challenge our listeners to, you know, really dial in. I think I read in the book, you said, if DEI is simply a marketing effort, or something that HR is trying to do, it’s not going to work. It needs to be really a business strategy. Did I get that right? Straighten me out if I didn’t get it right.
Everett: Right. In order to do diversity, equity, and inclusion, well, if it’s a side project, then what happens to side projects, when budgets get cut, the economy takes a turn, sales start to flatten? Side projects go out.
Nicole: Well, I’m a trainer. I mean, like most of my work is training. And the first thing that gets slashed is training. I’m like no, no, no, this is when we need training. I think people are looking at DEI as training. So I think we should talk about that, too. Like, yeah, well there is DEI training. But DEI is not training.
Everett: That’s right. That’s correct. And I think it is the reason I, so what I do when people ask like, so how did you think about this? I said, what’s the connection to your business model? What’s the connection to your operations? Why are you doing this? There are lots of, there’s tons of data about great outcomes to having diverse boards, diverse leadership teams, diverse companies. That is now out of the bag, it is unquestioned.
However, for a leader out there, how does it reflect your business? Is it about recruiting more people? Is it about reaching your customers? Is it about getting more insight in developing better products? Whatever it happens to be, be clear on it, before you go into this. How we do it at Truss. We realized that we know we make better decisions, when we have diverse teams, on all different levels. Two, part of our job with our clients is to solve complex problems with lots of unknowns. Isn’t it better to have people with different perspectives on that, that we can then serve our clients better with that fuller perspective.
So that was really clear for us. The third is, it’s part of our value. It’s not a side project. I am personally involved. And as leaders, the CEO, whether it’s a team or leading an organization, if there isn’t a commitment to that executive sponsorship and leadership, setting the tone about why this is important, people won’t take it as seriously. And so then it becomes something that HR does, or marketing does. Without that support, it will probably not succeed.
Nicole: Yeah, I tell this story often, but I think it bears repeating right now, because I love what you’re saying. Everett just said, I’m involved. Okay. And he is, you know, I don’t know, I bet his pyramid is upside down. He’s serving up. But, you know, I will go and I’ll do trainings Everett, and there’ll be this one, like, you know, you know, little hungry person that’s in the organization. They’re delighted to be at training. And on a break, they’ll come up and they’ll say, is my boss gonna get this training? And I’m like, no.
And they’re like, oh, and it slays me, and it happens all the time. So I really love what you’re saying. And don’t miss this. He graduated from Duke people right over here in my home, North Carolina, go Durham, North Carolina. So, you know, he’s telling the truth right there. Absolutely. So you’ve incorporated that in your in your company. Could you kind of maybe share some strategies, or how like, give us the to-dos of how to do that. Because people need to kind of understand how to do it effectively.
Everett: I think the first is to be clear about what your goals are, one’s goals are. Two is to be clear and candid about how to get there. So if you’re trying to build a company, and you’re not diverse in whatever manner. Just say, okay, we want to set a goal of being in this level at this level in a couple of years. And by the way, you measure this in years, not in quarters. This is hard work. It takes diligence if you’re going to do it in an authentic way. It’s years. I think once the once you kind of said okay, here’s how we’re going to get there. It’s learning.
It’s going out and asking, okay, what can I do? How can I do something? How can I do better? For example, if you’re an all male organization, and or mostly male organization, and you’re trying to increase the number of women on your leadership team. If you go out and say, I’m going to recruit lots of women. Women are gonna look at your homepage and your about me page and they’re gonna see nope, I don’t see a single other person there. I don’t really feel like being the first.
A different approach is to say, okay, here’s where we are. We have an all mostly male team, and asking people, what can we do differently to create an environment where women are valued, etc, etc? And ask people, not for candidates, but for advice. For insight, for feedback. Here’s our standard marketing or recruiting pitch, what do you think about it? And then going to conferences and showing up, this is another one of if you’re a leader don’t send, it makes a bigger message when you go to in this case, all women’s conference, and you’re there to learn.
Nicole: A leadership conference or something. Yeah.
Everett: Yeah, that’s right, you’re there to learn. I’m here to learn. I know I’m the only one, I’m sure I will feel really ignorant. A lot of the time showing up and then asking really authentic questions starts to create that credibility. Now, when you reach out having built those relationships, hey, I know what this person is doing. I know, they show up, I know, they ask for feedback, I know they’ve added value to our conference, here’s a candidate that might be interesting for you. It’s that relationship building, not transaction, that really starts to change the way that you think about, and the impact you can have in building a diverse culture. That takes time, but one has to learn, and it takes time to learn.
Nicole: Yeah, and I bet if the male leader went to the women’s leadership conference, and then crazy thought, comes back and moves to the edge, declares that the center and says, now, where are you all going? What conference will you be going to this year? Will you be going to the same conference you’ve gone to for the last 12 years? Or will you do something that put, you know, because really what you’re saying is if we got to get the old, we got to get out of our comfort zone thing, right.
Everett: That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. And you challenge your own team members to do the same. And it’s a way of, we call it blameless post mortems. It’s blameless learning. We’re here to learn how to do things better. If we knew how to do who would have done it already. Learn from people, and develop relationships of credibility and trust. That’s what that’s about.
Nicole: Yeah. And like, I know, you know, those of you who listen regularly, you know, I tried to gather up like, you know, what are the skills do we need to work on as leader? So what’s our definition? We’re playing with that? And you know, that’s why I keep asking the question over and over of every guest, because, you know, I don’t think I have the answer yet. I don’t know if I’ll ever have the answer. But the other thing I’m kind of gathering up is like, what are the skills that a leader needs to be super effective. And this is what you just said, you said, you know, you got to be a relationship builder.
You’ve got to get out your comfort zone. I kind of paraphrased that. And you you’ve, you’ve got to ask questions. Now I’m gonna tell you something, this thing about questions. I have coaching training and the part of the coaching training that I got, when I got my little certificate, that changed my life was this whole idea of asking questions. So can you talk a little bit more, because you said it twice. Just in this little space of time that asking questions is money. So will you talk about that?
Everett: Yeah. There’s a great Ted Lasso episode about, if you look it up, if you look it up the dart scene. And I won’t tell the whole story, but essentially, he the key phrase is more inquiry, less certainty. And I think it really embodies this. It’s starting with curiosity. Are you curious about the person across from you? Are curious about your client? Are you curious about this business problem? Not from the standpoint of I know the answer, I just need to solve it.
But I’m curious about what is the nature of this problem? Are there different ways to address it? When you start there, then what follows this curiosity? Oh, how does this work? Oh, who else has this problem? Where else can I get perspective? Who can show me how this works? Kids are great at this, right? They’re asking why all the time. And so in a different context, the beginner’s mindset is another way of framing it, you ask questions, and you’re open to information, rather than trying to sort things and then make decisions quickly.
There’s a benefit to that. And the benefit is not only I have better understanding, I am modeling it for my team. I’m saying simply by asking lots of questions, oh, he doesn’t know the answer. Maybe I can ask more questions. And if I’m good at creating that environment that no matter what the answer is, even though answers I don’t like or disagree with, I’m appreciative of those different answers. Now I’ve got a team that feels a greater sense of psychological safety. And they’re able to bring their best work and best perspectives to a decision. That’s really where the sort of asking questions becomes even more powerful, because now it spreads to the rest of the organization.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I love what you’re saying about questions, too. And you know, that old thing, you know, knowledge is power, and you get more knowledge, if you ask more questions. I like to call them powerful questions. All right. So everybody go look at the dart scene. And I’m gonna say this again, he said, more inquiry, less certainty. I love that. That’s fantastic. That’s fantastic. Okay, all right. So in the book, you talk about, you know, there’s methods to move. And then exterior practices and interior practices. That’s a lot of things that you have lots to share about, but will you kind of dial that in for us a little bit?
Everett: Sure. Exterior practices are those that you can use with your organization. It’s designed to, there are things like retrospectives, which are processes for reviewing and understanding both good things and bad things in a project. There are post mortems, or sorry, pre mortems, which is imagining sort of in the future, how things going to go and then mitigate both the good and bad in that. So these are specific practices that enable someone to, to follow, and that can be used with an organization. Interior practices are saying, okay, you can have all the frameworks you want.
But if you’re not aligned with a sense of purpose, or you’re not able to be comfortable being uncomfortable, then you’re going to apply these exterior practices in incorrect ways. So it’s a place to start first from oneself. And then be able to develop basically the habit of being able to make good decisions, even when you’re uncomfortable. Even when there’s unknowns. Even when there’s uncertainty. The good news, you can practice all those things. So making it a practice doesn’t now doesn’t become a hero thing. You’re not trying to be heroic. You’re trying to make good decisions in a sustainable way under potentially high stress and high uncertainty. Interior practices helps the individual with that.
Nicole: Yeah, one of the the practices you have in the notebook is writing a letter to yourself. Now I have, I have a mentor. Her name’s Anne Starrette. And every time she has a program at the end, she makes us write a letter to ourselves, and then she sends it to us at some random time. Yeah. And you get that letter in the mail. And you’re like, oh, yeah, I did say that to myself, didn’t I. Yeah, I love it. But will you, is that what, will you explain how you use it? Because I think it’s a fantastic way to build that interior. You know, this is what you’re thinking, this is what you’re doing, this gets you aligned with what your purpose is. Go ahead.
Everett: Yeah, yeah. So it relies on the principle that the psychologists call counterfactuals, which is a way to imagine a scenario outside of what is expected or briefly said. And what a letter to yourself is, is applying that principle to making a decision often when you have two great choices, or you have choices but don’t have enough information. Many people, including myself, often get stuck. Like, oh, I don’t know what to do? Well, this is a way to move forward. So essentially, I’ll give you the specific example. I was trying to tie between graduate schools, Michigan, or Stanford, and I didn’t know what to do.
And so I got advice to write a letter to myself. Imagine yourself a year from now. And not just what am I doing? It’s where do I live? What’s the scene like? Do I have friends? What kind of friends? How do I spend my free time? What am I studying? Just really paint that full picture? I am the protagonist of this novel, right? And what happens is, when you start writing that, and pick one of the scenarios, right. So I picked Stanford, started writing, and you feel like, oh, this isn’t good. No, this I don’t want this future. Okay, now you’ve gotten some really good information. Maybe Michigan is the best call.
So I was writing, I was feeling pretty excited about it. I could paint a vivid picture. And I was like, okay, yeah, I think I’m willing to do this, I really didn’t go forward. You close the letter up. You put it in someplace, you can find it. And in some amount of time, six months, nine months, one year, you open the letter, but don’t open it beforehand. So what happened for me, I made the decision to go to Stanford, and it was to go to graduate school in organizational behavior. And I opened the letter. And it was so close. It was I was really happy, it was sunny, I was working hard, I liked what I was studying.
But what was missing was I didn’t really, I didn’t, I wasn’t fully committed to being a professor. And that was pretty critical in an academic environment. Yeah. And so what I realized was it helped me make a decision, Michigan versus Stanford. But it also helped me realize that when I made that decision, there was another factor that I hadn’t considered. And now I got to address that issue. And so that’s when I left to go to the MBA program instead.
So writing a letter, enables you to make a decision, enables you paint a vivid picture, and also allows one to evaluate that decision based on the information you have. And that provides me learning. Sometimes you predicted correctly, and other times you didn’t, but that’s learning too. And that’s really the power of writing a letter to yourself. There’s all sorts of different variations. You can also do this with a team. It’s called a pre mortem. And it’s really helpful, because it helps you avoid problems, learning from the future to avoid problems now.
Nicole: Fantastic. All right. Well, we are unfortunately, at the end of our time, but I mean, like, we only got like to chapter three. So Everett, it has to come back and play with me some more another time. Here’s what I want to do. I want to encourage everybody to go out and buy Everett Harper’s book, it’s Moved to the Edge, Declare it Center: Practices and Processes for Creatively Solving Complex Problems.
And I bet you got 3, 12 complex problems that you probably need to solve. You can work on, you can get his little diagram, you can work on your external practices and your internal practices, maybe do some cool work around DEI, learn to ask powerful questions. I just think this could really help you. So Everett, will you, will you tell everybody where they can find you and find your book?
Everett: Sure. The book is on all the places. Amazon, you can get it at your local bookstore, you can order it through and I’m a big supporter of local bookstores, Barnes and Noble as well. It’s print, audiobook and ebook. So whatever modality you like. Where you can find me everettharper.com is my other site. It has different stories, I’m going to be probably putting some interesting content on there in the in the near future, around turning some of the book into workbooks that people can do online. My company is truss.works.
And we can learn how and see how we’ve turned a lot of these practices into this vibrant culture that’s doing really important work for our clients. And if you want to hire us or want to come join us as a company, there are ways to do that. We are always looking for great people. And then on Instagram and Twitter, it’s Everett Harper, so all my handles are the same. So yeah, hit me up anywhere. I love having conversations like this with anybody because you may be taking the same ideas and extending it far beyond whatever I thought. That’s the point of this book. To start conversations and hopefully contribute to helping people make better decisions.
Nicole: And I have absolutely loved having this conversation with you. And you know what Everett? There’s always one listener going wait, wait, wait, leave me one more nugget. Don’t let them go without one more nugget. What’s your last nugget you’re going to leave with us?
Everett: Last nugget?
Nicole: You want us to remember. Yeah, what’s the thing? What’s our call to action? What do you want us to do out here in the world?
Everett: Yeah. I would say get comfortable with being uncomfortable. You can practice that. But to get to the next level, and I bet you all the listeners here actually know this already. I’m just reminding you of what you actually know. Getting comfortable with being uncomfortable, is the place where you really start to grow, really start to learn and model for others about how to do this.
Nicole: Fantastic. All right. Thank you, Everett, for bringing your genius on the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. We loved it.
Everett: Appreciate it.
Voiceover: Ready to build your vibrant culture? Bring Nicole Greer to speak to your leadership team, conference or organization to help them with her strategies, systems and smarts to increase clarity, accountability, energy and results. Your organization will get lit from within. Email Nicole@nicolegreer.com. And be sure to check out Nicole’s TEDx talk at nicolegreer.com.
