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David Nour is a world-renowned speaker, coach, and expert on business relationships. His Curve Bender strategy will help you identify, prioritize, and cultivate the impactful relationships that will not only determine what you can accomplish but also shape the leader you can become.
Reach out to top contacts and reestablish relationship “onramps” with contacts you’ve lost touch with. Listen in and learn to cultivate and leverage your portfolio of relationships.
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Transcript
David Nour: In its simplest form, curve benders are really powerful, impactful relationships, business relationships that leave an indelible imprint on not just what we accomplish, but Nicole, who we become.
Voiceover: You’re listening to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast with professional speaker, coach and consultant Nicole Greer.
Nicole Greer: Welcome to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. My name is Nicole Greer. And I’ve got Nour with me today. He is here. He’s the author of wait, don’t miss his 11 books. Number 11 In my hot little hands, but he’s got a 12th one in the head here. He’s going to get it out very soon, so good news. We’ve got lots of books to talk about in the future. But this is the one we’re going to talk about today. I am so delighted to have you on the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. Let me tell you a little bit about what Nour does.
He helps visionary leaders rethink and reinvent key parts of their business for future growth. He enables leaders to reimagine the future. Because if you get this future state in your mind, you can figure out all the little strategies that will get you there. And so he is an expert. People come to him from all over the world to get big ideas, advising, coaching, speaking and resources and you can find out more about him at Nour Group. Let me spell it n o u r group.com. And you can find out more. Welcome to the show. I’m so delighted you’re here.
David: Nicole, it’s great to be with you.
Nicole: Yeah, thanks for coming. Well, I want to talk about this wonderful book, but it’s called Curve Benders. And so I want to first of all find out what is a curve bender? Will you tell us?
David: Sure. So in its simplest form, curve benders are really powerful, impactful relationships, business relationships, that leave an indelible imprint on not just what we accomplish, but Nicole, who we become. So think of that early college professor years ago that that left an impression on you, or that first manager or that first great manager that took you under his or her wings that didn’t just teach you the business. But they taught you how to be an empathetic leader. They taught you how to be a servant leader. They taught you how to attract and develop exceptional talent.
These are the people that I believe and my assertion in the book is they determine both our direction and our ultimate destination. And beyond helping us perform short term, they really help shape the leader, the human being, the husband, the father, the brother and sister that we become in a much more holistic way. And for you and your audience to really, I think for this concept to resonate, I want you to think of a stair step. The first step is your everyday contacts. You interact with them, you add value, you nurture those, they become relationships. You spend some time with those relationships, you really add value, and they prioritize you and vice versa, they become strategic relationships.
You identify market opportunities, of which neither one of you can go at it alone. So you two or more parties come together and you co create something, so they’re co creators. The next level up are your curve benders. And that leads to what I call my Star Wars trilogy. Because three of the books, Relationship Economics, Co-Create and Curve Benders are my Star Wars trilogy. And you’ll get to know Luke Skywalker, if you watch any of them, you just get to know him a lot better if you watch all three episodes.
Nicole: Well, you need to know Nour that all of us over here are major major Star Wars fans, we want the trilogy. We love a trilogy. A good trilogy. I think that is so fantastic. So name your three books for everybody. Again, we’ve got Curve Benders, that’s the one in my hot little hand right here. And what what were the other two, give them to us again.
David: So the one right before this was called Co-Create. And really my seminal work, my kind of what I’m best known for is a book called Relationship Economics. And think of those as the stairsteps. So Relationship Economics, how to turn everyday contacts into strategic relationships. Some of those relationships become co creators, some of those co creators really become curve benders.
Nicole: That’s fantastic. And I love some of the language that’s in your book, you say, transformational encounters, always beat transactional ones. And that’s what you’re talking about right there, correct? Talk about that.
David: That’s exactly right. So think of a vendor, you know, a seller-buyer relationship, right? If you sell something highly transactional, you deliver that value, I pay you for it, we’re basically done. If conversely, what you do, helps me think. Helps me think differently about my business. Helps me think differently about my strategy, my direction, the talent, value creation in my company. Now it’s a different level. So now you’re a strategic relationship. If you bring ideas and perspectives that I haven’t thought of, if you help me anticipate the pitfalls that I’m headed for, if you help bring a best practice from another industry, that it’s not even on my radar.
If you expose a vulnerability, let’s say cybersecurity, or some other facet, that could actually hurt me. And you helped me avoid that, now, you’re at a different level than a transactional vendor, because you’re helping me transform my business, you’re adding that material value at a very different level. And as such, I’m going to treat you differently, because you’re now strategic, to my success and where I want to go, and how I can get there.
Nicole: Absolutely. So you know, I’m all about building a vibrant culture. And how does this take place inside of an organization, if a leader decides that they want to be somebody who is very intentional, they want to turn every relationship inside the organization, also outside like you just said, and they want to, they want to turn it into a curve bender relationship. What are the things that they need to do?
David: I love that you focus on culture, because Nicole I often tell leaders like a family, if it’s dysfunctional on the inside, everybody will see it, everybody will experience it. And I often talk about one of the biggest missed opportunities or relationships within the organization. So your right, leadership starts with you looking in the mirror, and asking, number one, you cannot, by the way, sociologists tell us that an average individual can proactively manage about 100 to 150 relationships. So the first question, million dollar question, is which ones? And how do you know? And if you can’t invest in, if you can’t invest in everybody equally, how will you then prioritize which relationships you’re going to invest in?
So I coach people to create your top 10, top 20, top 30, top 50, top 100 relationships you need to invest in. So A, be intentional about the relationships you choose to invest in. Number two, everybody’s favorite subject is themselves. So I know you need something, I know you want something, but going to someone and asking with your hand out isn’t nearly as impactful if you go and give them a hand. So I often reach out to other department heads, other other directors, other peers ask, hey, I say happy new year into June, right? Happy New Year. How are you tell me about your priorities this year? And how can I help? How can I be an asset to your efforts? How can I help elevate, amplify, enhance your outcomes, your results? What we found is one of the fundamental laws in any business relationship is number one is gratitude.
So ideally, if the person says thank you, number two is reciprocity. So if you add value to my world, at some point, I should think maybe not today, tomorrow, next week or next month. But at some point, I should say, Nicole, that’s very kind of you, how can I help you? How can I be an asset to you? And that’s not when you want to fumble this. So ideally, you have a list of very targeted two or three things that you need help with. And last, but not least, is this idea of pay it forward. So if I coach you, if I mentor you, if I help you, if I elevate you, ideal, if I can observe you can’t say it, I need to observe it, that you’re doing the same thing for others. And that is servant leadership that great leaders can model, can coach, can mentor their teams, to really build.
We keep talking about cross functional. There is no relationship between buildings. There’s no relationship between logos. It’s always between individuals. And if you coach your team to build a relationship with marketing, with finance, with IT, and build get to know Jennifer or Hector or Juan in that group, then you can call that individual and get things done. The other thing that I know Nicole, you and I deeply believe in is people always prioritize projects, initiatives, action items for people they know. Let’s be honest, they like, they respect, they trust and if you’re not investing in nurturing those, you should have zero expectation that somebody who already has their plate full is going to clear that plate to do something for you.
And the hierarchal will only work so far. But if your peers, I often ask what have you done to invest in that relationship, understand their priorities, understand that which is important to them, and help them understand what you’re trying to get done, and then figure out alignment. Because if you’re not doing that, again, you should have no expectation that is going to get done. Something that’s important to you.
Nicole: Fantastic All right, so don’t miss. He said, you’ve got to be intentional. You’ve got to instead of asking for things, you’ve got to offer your talents and skills. And when you do that, do this this funny, fabulous thing called reciprocity will happen, because that is kind of hardwired into humans, don’t you think? You know, if I asked you for something, and then you know, now I feel obligated to you. But it’s like, in a great way, right? We’re both giving each other our talents, our skills, our know how our genius, right?
David: That’s exactly right. And by the way, there’s this guilt thing that takes over that if you just did something nice for me, I better somehow reciprocate. Otherwise, I’m gonna feel bad. So we go out of our ways to reciprocate. But we need to feel kindness, we need to feel that others have a vested interest in our success. We need to feel that they get us and get what’s important to us and get that which we’re trying to accomplish. And I’ve always said a culture is a culmination of behaviors, that a leader is willing to tolerate.
Ask any leader, how long they’ll put up with a high performer who’s a jerk. And most people will say not that long. And I often coach people, develop a preference for your technical skills. Regardless of what you do in the organization. You want to make sure you’re technically very competent, very capable. And people prefer to work with you for your technical skills, right? If it’s an IT skill, marketing, legal, sales, any of those skills inside the organization, develop a preference for your technical skills. Develop an insistence for the way you build and nurture relationships.
So as people put teams, as people put cross functional teams, as they put initiatives together, as they think about individuals across the organization, they’ll say, Nicole, she has amazing marketing skills, but I love the way she builds teams. I love the way she works with other people. I love how she’s open to new perspectives. If you think about it, those are all relational attributes. You want to build a preference for your technical skills, you want to build an insistence, I want and we need Nicole on that team, because of the way she builds relationships.
Nicole: Yeah, so when you say technical skills, this word expertise is rolling around in my brain. So is that an accurate way of saying building your technical skills is like get your expertise nailed down, know what you’re doing. Do I have that right?
David: That’s exactly right. So again, if I if I need marketing help, or if I need IT skill, IT help, I want to come to you because you have that subject matter expertise down. But I want to work with you, I choose to work with you, I insist that you’re on this team, because of the way you nurture relationships. Because the way you’re a consensus builder. You are a, you’re very respectful of other opinions and other perspectives, and you hear them, you honor them, you create that space for them to jump in with their opinions and perspectives. You demonstrate gratitude, you demonstrate empathy. And the other thing on this note, Nicole that I’ve that I’ve been a student of this for almost 20 years.
Nicole: I can tell.
David: You have relationships and not something we can talk just talk about. You people look for observable behaviors. Don’t tell me you’re a relationship builder. Don’t tell me you’re a team builder. Don’t tell me our people are our biggest asset. And as soon as times get tough, you’ll lay off most of the company, because that becomes hollow promises. Conversely, when you demonstrate that your people matter to you think about the last two years, we’ve all struggled in many of us going from coming into an office and being together every day to everybody’s had to scatter and work from home. And some of us have been working home from home for a whole bunch of years. So it wasn’t a big deal.
But think about those people that were you really used to coming into an office every day. And really leveraging that camaraderie and the communication down the hall and the collaboration. Now they’ve suddenly for the last two years, I’ve been shoved into the rooms, and I love this. Somebody else said, when did working from home become sleeping at work? Right? We’ve all had to go do this. And a leader who recognizes that and opens up Zoom calls with how’s your head? How’s your heart? How are you feeling? What’s really going on with you? You look great. Right? All of these things are demonstrable behaviors that people look for, to see if the steak matches the sizzle. If what you’re promising matches what you actually do and how you show up.
Nicole: Well, first of all, I love a good filet mignon reference, I just want to say, so I love that. But I think you just laid down a lot of good things. So I don’t want people to miss him again. So these demonstrable behaviors, things you can demonstrate. So he said, building consensus, being respectful, hearing others, honoring others, creating a space for them. And then I went to page two of my notes, and you said, do a, and then you said, do a check in. So I love that. I know that that is a huge piece for people is like, they come to the meeting, they get a chance to check in, and then we can get on with the agenda. Right? So we’re acknowledging you’re human. Now, there’s another thing rolling around in my brain. And it’s this idea of that, you know, there are hard skills and soft skills, people talk about that all the time. And I don’t think soft skills are soft by a longshot. And I don’t think it’s like the icing on the cake. Like you can be an expert without them, and you’re saying these two things have to come together. And they are both essential.
David: You’re exactly right. And I think the fact that I’m really product of two very distinct cultures really brought that to life very early and often for me. So as you and your audience may know, I’m originally from Iran. And if you’ve lived abroad, if you’ve worked abroad, particularly in Asia, and Middle East and Latin America, you’ll realize that the rest of the world, Nicole builds relationships first, from which they do business. Unfortunately, many of us as Americans, or even Westerners, are so focused on the business part. So only when my project plan, only when my checklist, only when this deal. When I get all that done, I may ask you about you and your family. Hence the disconnect when we go into places and people don’t look like us sound like us or come from our backgrounds.
So you’re exactly right. I cringe when I hear someone call relationships, a soft skill, because in the last 20 years, we’ve proven the quantifiable value of business relationships. Think of how much faster can you learn a job if you’ve got a peer inside a company that shows you what to do what not to do? How to do it, how to get your arms around a new job? Think of how much faster can you recruit, particularly in a tough talent market, the right person in that right role through your network. Through your relationships. Think of how fast you can go to market, in your sales, marketing, your product, all of that if you have the right relationships. So yes, there are some technical skills, some subject matter skills that are definitive.
Here’s how to use Microsoft Excel, here’s how to use salesforce.com. Here’s how to use a lot of these tools and technologies. By the same token, none of that brilliance will matter if you can’t engage and influence others. None of that brilliance matters if you rub everybody wrong, every time you interact with them. None of that matters. If you can’t, and this has been a real challenge in the last two years for a lot of managers and leaders, they may be perfect in person of shaking hands and hugging and the water cooler conversations. But none of us, very few of us have been able to do that.
So how do you engage and how do you influence hybrid relationships where you’ve never met the person in person that you’ve hired and works for you. Or your, you know, weekly team huddles have all gone through now these, you know, the Hollywood Squares we all live in. And a lot of managers are struggling making, making that transition from in person to digital. So I agree with you, I think it’s more than just a soft skill. And you know it when you meet a manager or leader that has invested in elevating their relationship development, nurturing their emotional intelligence, skills and capabilities.
Nicole: Yeah. So I’m curious who in your life is one of your most valuable relationships? And could you maybe talk us through how you went through the stages with this person? What you did to turn it into that great relationship?
David: Yeah. So I’m blessed. This is your 20 of our practice. So and again, one of the, thank you, one of the benefits of that is I honestly haven’t had to cold call for business in a really long time. You know, it’s it’s clients that you know, so a really good example. A executive I met probably 15 years ago at his first company and coached him. I spoke at their annual meeting, got to know him, coached his team, he left, went to another company calls me and says, we’re having the exact same problem, can you come help me here. So I’ve worked with him at the second company. Second company merges with another one, his team gets considerably bigger. He does his work, he does really well. An opportunity comes his way, I coach him to not take on this other job. So I’ve now worked with him in four different companies. Four very marquee companies, and he’s been a client, and he’s become a friend, by the way, has been to my home. He’s met my wife, I’ve met his fiancee, we’ve traveled together, we’ve been in, you know, on a road trip in cars together.
So this is just one example of someone who you just initially meet who becomes a contact. But as you exchange value, again, they become relationships. When you count on their counsel, when you look for their advice, when they give you a testimonial with their name and their title, this is something the audience might really benefit from. Every referral is a recommendation. Every testimonial is a recommendation. So when people refer you to other employees, other departments, other functions, other third party folks that can help you, they’re recommending you. If you’re not getting those, if you’re not getting recommended for additional roles, responsibilities, if you’re not getting mentored in your company, if you’re not getting sponsored in your organization for higher roles and responsibilities, this would be a really good time to ask yourself, why is that?
Are you technically brilliant but you rub everybody the wrong way? Are you not packaging and marketing your personal or your leadership brand? Do they realize the the real value that you create through the work that you do? Are you building and nurturing relationships at the right levels in the organization? These are all the things that I can unpack and tell you what’s going well in your relationship ecosystem or portfolio and what isn’t. The key is, I said it earlier, become more intentional in the relationships you choose to invest in. Because every single day, it’s a choice.
Nicole: Yeah. So let’s go back to that for a minute. Because you say I coach people to pick the top 10, maybe the 20, the 30, the 40, the 50, the 100. So what would you use for criteria for picking those people? Tell me what the criteria is?
David: I, I love that. So again just a quick story for you and your audience.
Nicole: I love stories.
David: In 2019, I was on the road 208 days, between the speaking consulting coaching, I reverted to the fact that some people get in a car to go to work, I got on planes to go to work, right. And by the way, you’re never hero in your own hometown. So all my clients are like everywhere else. In 2020. In 2020, I was on the road 22 days. And that was all pre March. So as the pandemic happened, like everybody else, it shut down. Nobody’s having meetings, nobody’s having conferences, nobody, you know, a lot of companies and their buildings were empty, much less so they’re not seeing visitors.
So I made, I doubled down on digital. And I in my home office, I have a 4k camera and lighting. And, and and I took a lot of my business online. And one of the first things I did in the pandemic is I literally made a list of my top 100 business relationships. Obviously existing customers, prospective customers, other thought leaders, other practice leaders, coaches, mentors, people that I had worked with years ago, colleagues, people that run in parallel universes. And Nicole, I reached out to them. I didn’t try to sell them anything, didn’t just called and said how are you doing? And what are you doing? And what are you seeing? And what are you hearing? And what can I do to help? And I’m not a recruiter, I’m not in the PPE business.
But when you hear a customer is struggling for masks and gloves, and by the way, another customer has extra, you put them together, you now become a purveyor of relationships. When you see one client, they’re there in this industry sector has gotten just hammered. And they have to lay people off to survive. And you see another client who’s desperate for people, you put them together. And they you know, they take their talent and they you know, somebody else hires them the next day. It’s a win win. And they remember how they met. They remembered who introduced them, so you become a purveyor of relationships.
So the first few months of this pandemic, all I did was touch base with people. And by the way for some of your newer generation audience, we use this antiquated thing called a telephone where you dial numbers and they pick it up and you hear their voice and right. And by the way, how many of your relationships so you have their cell number? Because most people weren’t in their office. And if their office numbers, the only thing you add, you left a lot of voicemails, but I’m not sure you got a hold of anybody. So I, for the first couple months, all I did was just call people. How are you doing? What are you doing? What’s happening? What are you seeing? How can I help? What’s going on with you? Did I read this? What are you doing in that area? Let me introduce you to so and so.
And then, as I said, it’s a lot easier to ask for something, if you begin by making those investments. And I tend to practice what I preach. What happened was, then I started getting calls. Listen, you know that in person meetings we’re going to do, obviously, we’re not going to do it in person, but could you come and present that thing you showed me last month, to our audience or to our team? Sure. Hey, listen, that that the coaching advice you gave me last time we spoke, I think my team could really benefit. Could you come and do something? Sure. So now what happens is, right, my business went from 200 days on the road to 22 days on the road. And if you invest in those relationships.
So the criteria I used was who was most relevant in my relationship ecosystem. customers, partners, thought leaders, I teach a couple universities, other professors, I have colleagues who are in the same space I’m in you could say competitors, but they’re not really competitors, because we compare notes and ideas and perspectives, other consultants, other coaches, and I just reached out, and I think we don’t need a global pandemic to do that. So I I actually make an update, a regular list of most my most valuable relationships, my most impactful relationships, and I make sure I touch base with them on a regular basis with value add.
Nicole: I love that. Well, you know, I’ve got to go to this place of how do you stay organized with that, you know, inside my mind, you know, you’re you’ve got definitely I can tell, huge sales background, and presently you got you know, you got to do that because you’re an entrepreneur. And I do too. But I’m sitting here thinking, you know, every single leader should have a CRM.
David: Absolutely, yes. And every single leader, yeah. Yes.
Nicole: Because I think people are sloppy with their contacts. You know, you said, do you have their cell phone, and then my brain just went 20 miles down the road over here. And I’m thinking, you know, I think people are, you know, like, I know, people are a little bit sloppy, especially with email, because I’ll get an email from somebody, maybe three, four months later, Nour, and it’s some communication from, I don’t know, six months before that, and they googled my name, I’m somewhere in their 10,000 inbox. And they’re responding, but they don’t do the fresh email. And I think that either getting your contacts really cleaned up and fresh and having some discipline around that would be very helpful. But then also maybe a CRM. An inexpensive CRM.
David: No question. By the way, I think we’re all in sales. We all figured out how to sell ourselves ever since we were teenagers. And we went on a first date, right? So all this stuff, all the ideas that I’m sharing, I’ve done them over the years inside organizations, outside organizations, through channel partners with media relations, with investors. So these tips, techniques, advice, I believe, is ubiquitous in whatever business relationship you need to nurture. So within the organization, think of the relationships you interact with most often. Think of the relationships that are most relevant to your success. If I’m in sales within the organization, I’m thinking of marketing and finance and IT. If I’m an HR, I’m thinking of legal and finance, and IT.
If I’m the executive ranks, if I’m running a business unit, I’m thinking, okay, who is manufacturing or distribution, or HR and talent that’s critical to my success. So think of a target bull’s eye logo. In the middle was people who were most relevant to you, then the next tier. So who do you need to touch? What do you need to prioritize after that? Then the next, so think of these different buckets that are critical to your success, and start making a, start with five. Who the five people in that department in that function that you need in that geography? You’re in Atlanta. But you know what? The Chicago office is doing some really cool things that you could learn from, or you’re in New York, and you’re trying to reinvent something that LA figured out six months ago.
So start to identify the individuals in different functions in different geographies, different lines of businesses, that you can learn from, you can grow through. You can build and nurture relationships with. And the growth, Nicole is the biggest, should be the biggest driver of that because the day you stop learning and growing, is the day you become complacent. And the day you become complacent, you’re no longer valuable to your biggest asset, which I believe to be your relationships. So I build that list and nurture that list. I’m always asking, what can I do to help? How can I be an asset to you? Where are you struggling? If I wanted to help you, if I could help you? How could I help you? And I think people remember that, inside or outside the organization.
And you don’t need to have a sales function, I think we all could do that much more effectively. And on that note, let me just plant the seed with you. Garbage in, garbage stays. Right, you said it, we’re all very good at collecting contacts and directories and names. And we don’t ever go back and clean them up. We don’t ever go back. And so so I use. And again, I don’t have any financial interest in this, but I use a tool called Circle Back. It’s, it’s a mobile app that I use, that you can actually tie your contacts. Here’s the kicker to your social networks. Tie it to your LinkedIn tie it to your Twitter account tie it to Facebook. And what we found is people tend to update their their social media accounts much more often than they update their network.
So what Circle Back does it goes back and says, wait a minute, Nicole Greer has a different email address than what’s in your contacts. Do you want me to update it? And it automatically syncs the two and updates the two. So if Nicole just went and got a new job, or left the company, how often have you sent an email to somebody inside the company for it to bounce. And that’s when you realize the person left the company? Well, in their social media account, they’ve updated, they’ve joined a new company, and they’ve updated the contact info and a tool, there’s others like it, but Circle Back says let me sync the two, let me update the two. And that could be a really good way.
The other tip that I give people in every interaction, try and again, sociologists call this being ambient aware, basically update the information you have. Hey, Nicole, while I have you, is this still your best cell number? Or is this your best email address? And when you do that, you have the most updated information about someone not just once a year when you send out Christmas cards, and three months later, they come back as oh, no longer at that address. Or the email bounces back or the number you have called is no longer in service. You have their most updated information.
Nicole: I love everything you said. So I want to talk about you know, making this list for a second. Something popped in my head Nor. I worked with master coach Dave Cowen. And when I was starting my business, he said to me, you know, you’ve got to start building your network, like ASAP. And I was like, okay, well, how do I do that? And he said exactly what you said, come up, come up with, you know, 20 names, 30 names, 40, 50, 100. And he said, you know, write down their names, and just think of what they are. And then he said, when you go to pick up the phone, you know, our, our antiquated animals right here, calling people instead of emailing them or texting them.
He said, you know, this is what you say, because here’s what people will push back. They’ll say, well, what do I say when I say when I call them? And he said, I’m curious what you would say. But he said, here’s what you say, you popped in my mind. And I thought, it has been a terribly long time since I have reached out. So I am reaching out, I am trying to make sure that I take care of my relationships. Well, that’s what master coach would say. And he said, is that a lie? And I’m like, no, that’s not a lie at all. You literally when I made the list you popped in my mind. So I loved that answer. What are your thoughts about people who are like, what I’m going to just start calling people out of the blue? What are you talking about?
David: Very similarly, use this podcast. Say listen, I just listened to a podcast where they talked about business relationships and take the high road, it dawned on me that I’ve done a terrible job staying in touch with you. Most people get a they cringe if they think you have an agenda. So diffusing that, disarming them that I you know, I just, hey I’ve done a terrible job staying in touch. I just wanted to touch base and see how you are doing and what’s going on with you. And what are you up to these days. The other thing I do Nicole, I call them relationship on ramps. So you if you look through LinkedIn, you’ll see that Nicole just became the new vice president at this company. Use that, hey, I just saw that you got promoted or you joined this company. I just wanted to call and say congrats.
And it’s been a while since we’ve talked. I just wanted to reconnect with you. I also when I see that, or I know that you’re passionate about culture. I often look for I’m a voracious reader. So I may look for a Wall Street Journal article, or I may look for something else that I saw that I might even if I’m completely wrong, the fact that I thought of you the fact that I’m sharing that. The fact that, hey, Nicole saw this made me think of you, would love to connect and get caught up on both sides. I do believe language is incredibly powerful. And if you listen to any one of those A, I take the high road. I’m embarrassed that I’ve done a terrible job staying in touch with you. I saw this, I saw your promotion, just want to reach out say congrats. I saw this. And I thought it might be of interest or value to you.
All of those, you’re taking initiative to reach out touch base with value add. I’m not a big fan of I just called to say, hey. Okay, well, that’s great. But you know what, I’m busy, you’re busy, you better have more than just hey, so. Right, I like adding value, I want to make sure I enhance my credibility, my repute, I want to enhance that relationship with every interaction. I don’t want to do anything to dilute it, I don’t want anything to, you know, for them to leave that call and say that was a waste of time, because they’re just not going to take your next call, or they’re not going to prioritize calling you back. And I think it’s important. As much as inside the organization, everybody’s busy. If you got to reach out, make sure it’s with value add, make sure it’s of reciprocal value. And you follow through afterwards to make sure you deliver that value.
Nicole: Yeah, so you’ve mentioned the fact that people are busy a lot. And I think that if you know, being outgoing, and as you said, someone who takes initiative, I’m gonna use the word, you know, like, more assertive, not aggressive, but assertive, like puts themselves out there. This is a really easy thing to just let kind of go, right. You know, like, I got technical work to do. But the work I was hired for my expertise. So when you coach people, and you talk to leaders, coach the people that are listening to this right now, they’re like, oh, my gosh, you know, I got to get this report, this project done. And now he wants me to sit down and talk to everybody. So what, how would you coach them?
David: You’re exactly right. And and there is there’s a fundamental difference between the extroverts, right. People that are that are high energy there aren’t afraid of walking into any, you know, they’ve never met a stranger, they don’t get to know within a few minutes, right? They are Facebook, right. They get out there and they kind of meet everybody. And, and there’s introverts who listen, I’d rather dive into a 400 page document than talk to anybody. I cannot turn an introvert into an extrovert. That’s not the goal. The goal is to help you understand that no growth ever comes from a place of comfort. And beyond your technical skills, beyond your technical knowledge, beyond your math, computer science and your reporting, and your dashboard, and beyond all those things that you’re capable of, your ability to engage and influence others is what’s gonna set you apart from your peers.
So if you’re in a position where you’re seeing your peers get promoted, or be asked to work on really cool, really interesting projects, or join a task force or relocate to another region or country to lead something, and you’re not. This may be that differentiation, because your technical skills are very competent and very capable and very comparable. But the fact that they they stretched themselves, and that’s really the coaching opportunity. You know, you don’t have to be in the spotlight, you don’t have to go, you know, over a cliff. Figure out where your comfort zone is. And just push yourself beyond that of just reaching out. Start with people, you know. Start with your school classmates, start with people that used to work with the same function, start with people you already know.
So they’re not really strangers, that maybe you’ve left neglect, maybe they’ve grown some cobwebs on those or rust on those relationships, polish that off, that’s a really good place to start. The other thing I like is in again, the pre pandemic world for the rest of the audience, we used to go to these things called events where we would go someplace and get a glass of wine and talk to people and those are always fun when you go with someone. If you’re an introvert, go with someone because misery likes company. And if there’s already two of you, you’re not standing there by yourself.
And it’s always great to talk to somebody else and we will move forward to those opportunities again. We’ll move forward with coming back into an office environment or some sort of a pod again, and I would just encourage you to push yourself beyond that comfort zone. And little by little extend and expand. What I do want your audience to hear beyond your academic foundation. Beyond your professional pedigree. I would submit your biggest asset is your portfolio of relationships, inside and outside the organization. The relationships you choose to invest in, build, nurture, will set you apart from your peers.
Nicole: Yeah, I was just sitting there thinking, I get asked this question all the time and I bet you, Nour, you get asked it too. Do you know, anybody who?
David: I know, a lot of people who. Tell me what is it that you need? Or tell me what, you know how I can help and, and and you do you build a relationship. So I what I love about that statement, Nicole is, Nicole may not have the answer. But she know someone who does. And that is invaluable. Because now you become their one phone call, you become their go to person. You become invaluable to them. And then when you need something, they’re more than willing to take your call, help you connect you with someone else. So absolutely become that person. Become that, again, Nicole may not have the answer, but she knows someone who does. You’ve heard the term connector. Become that, become that connective tissue when it comes to relationships.
Nicole: And and I would call that like, you know, having like the skill or maybe it might even be a character trait that you can build called resourcefulness. Right? You know, and I think that, you know, when you want to build a vibrant culture, you absolutely want to have a team of humans around you that are seriously resourceful. It should be that, you know, the CEO might know, but he might go down right to the front lines and say, do you know who? And that person is like, I absolutely can figure that out for you.
David: Yes. Yes, and don’t underestimate not just what you know, but the people you know, more and more people than you think you do.
Nicole: Oh, absolutely.
David: We don’t do, as I said earlier, we don’t do a very good job nurturing that and staying touch with them. Because you do know someone in China, you do know someone in manufacturing, you do know someone in engineering, you worked at a company three jobs ago, and that person is still there. So don’t underestimate your relationship ecosystem. Because you know a lot more people than you think you do.
Nicole: So you also, you said this thing, I want you to become ambient aware. And that was about, you know, making sure you have your ducks in a row and asking for the extra things. But um, I love that that phrase, being ambient aware. Will you share a little bit more about that? That’s about you know, cleaning up, getting your contacts together and everything. But I think there’s more there. I want to hear a little more about that.
David: Absolutely. And the whole premise is, the more information you gather about an individual, the more proactively you can nurture that relationship. So when’s their birthday? What’s their spouse or significant other’s name? Do they have kids? How many? What are their kids’ names? Do they have a dog? Do they have a cat? So all this information, where do they live? Have you been to their home? All of these things, help you proactively. Hey, how’s Jane? Last time we spoke she wasn’t feeling well? Or did she recover? Right? Listen, I’m so sorry to hear about, you know, my my own mom passed away because of COVID.
So when you talk to someone, thank you, when you talk to someone that you haven’t talked to in a while, and they bring that up, we feel this endearing connection to them because they A remember, or they figured it out. B they cared enough to say something. Three, they’re, and this is that demonstrable behaviors, right? They’re demonstrating empathy. Because, again, we intellectually understand that our parents aging and passing away is just part of the circle of life. It just stinks when you’re in it. So if somebody else can relate, you know, we all have mothers right? When somebody else can relate, and they sympathize with you again, you feel a certain human connection to them. That’s an example of that.
The other one is obviously everybody’s you know, significant others, their kids. You know, if you got kids if you’ve been around kids and dogs count by the way. Pets count. You know, how was Jane? I was a wasn’t Steve. Does Steve, still play lacrosse, your son and how’s he doing? Is he getting ready for school? And by the way, on this is really important. Everybody has a BS radar. If you don’t mean it, don’t bring it up. Don’t say it, don’t, because the worst thing you can do is ask. And as they’re answering, you’re distracted, you’re typing away email, you’re doing 30 million other things other than paying attention to something they really care about. Because they’ll see right through that. But if you ask how’s Jane? How’s how’s your husband, Steve doing? And he or she comes back with with thanks for asking. He was just diagnosed with cancer. You better be ready to sit there and listen.
Nicole: Absolutely. Don’t ask unless you’re will to listen. That’s good advice right there.
David: The worst thing you can do, like I said is okay, great. Thanks. So I hope she feels better. Like they see right through that and you’re shooting yourself in the foot because everybody sees, everybody sees that you’re going through the motion and you don’t really care.
Nicole: Yeah, you as you’re talking about this ambient awareness, I’m going to totally credit you. But I’m going to start talking about that. I think this is a really neat concept. I had a kids that went to school up here in North Carolina, they went to Sherrills Ford Elementary School, and it’s in the middle of nowhere Catawba County. And we had a principal and the principal loved the Wizard of Oz, just absolutely loved the Wizard of Oz. She had all this Wizard of Oz stuff all over her office. And every time I would go talk to her, that tells you about my kids, no I’m kidding, they’re great.
But anyway, so when I would go to her office, all this stuff would be in there. Well I went to some show somewhere like you know, where there’s all those booths, and you can buy stuff at the booth, some kind of thing at the big Charlotte mark down here. And there was this picture of one of the were they the little people, that’s what they call them, the little people that was you know, spoke in the movie, there was a picture and it was autographed. And I saw it, I thought, oh my gosh, she would love that. So like, you know, on just a whim, I just bought this thing. I don’t remember how much it was, but I bought it, it was probably too expensive to buy for the principal of the school.
But anyways, I was just thinking, she would love it. And I gave it to her. And just just the power of relationships and turning into a curve bender, because, don’t forget what we’re talking about right here. Don’t forget, about three years later. I mean, she was so grateful she loved it. But about three years later, she asked me to come speak at a conference for principals. And she told me. the reason I’m calling you is because that is probably the most thoughtful gift I have ever gotten in all the years of being a teacher and a principal, blah, blah, blah.
David: I love that. Listen to what she said. She didn’t say that was the most expensive gift I’ve ever gotten. She said it was the most thoughtful. And I’m a huge believer in that. I love that story. Every other story I’ve heard around this idea has a similar tone, which is you’re astute enough to listen, and I often coach people to listen louder, not just for what, listen louder for not just what’s being said. But what’s not being said. Have a process, mechanism, tool, something to capture that information. Because none of us can remember all this. Make sure it’s accessible when you need it. So it could be notes in your contacts. It could be whatever works for you Salesforce, it could be whatever you use, you’re right, every leader needs the CRM. But capture it somewhere that’s easily accessible.
And then you got to be savvy enough to to use, leverage that relationship on ramp when the opportunity arises. One of my clients is a huge baseball fan. And you know how during Christmas time if we send out gifts, we all send out the same cookie cutter, either basket or cards or something. Well, I actually believe in a fewer. And this is something that I really want to leave with you and your audience. I called the Jerry Maguire business model. Based after the movie. How do we how do we focus on fewer relationships, but really develop deeper, more meaningful relationships? So one of my clients great guy, huge baseball fan. And Nicole, I decided in January, that the Christmas gift I was going to give them were baseballs from all the major league baseball parks.
Nicole: That’s a bucket list thing for baseball people. They want to see a game in every single spot, don’t they?
David: As I traveled, I made sure I went by Fenway. I went by, you know Yankee Stadium, I went by Candlestick. As I traveled just for my work, I would pick up a baseball from that park. And end of the year I put it in a basket and I hand delivered it. You should have seen this guy’s expression. You would think I have gift wrapped a Ferrari. He was just beside himself that and I didn’t buy this stuff on eBay. And I was very intentional throughout the year of collecting things. And so my point is fewer, but more impactful, more intentional, more thoughtful, more. You know, another relationship inside a company, was really excited that him and his wife were gonna go to China. And likewise, my family and I’ve traveled extensively and one of my favorite travel books are called the Eye Witness because they’re by locals and they’re all very visual. I’m a visual learner.
So I got on Amazon, and I ordered a book. And it came to my house. And I use stickers and highlighter to highlight the key things that we thought they would really, really enjoy. And I hand delivered it. He goes on the trip, he comes back and says it was one of the best trips they ever had, because of that book. I think the book cost me like 30 bucks. I think it took me maybe an hour to highlight, with stickers, the key things they should go do. But it demonstrates, remember demonstrable behaviors, that that relationship is important to me. And I’m willing to invest thoughtfully in nurturing it. And that’s really critical for your audience to hear. Fewer, but deeper and more meaningful ones.
Nicole: Yeah, and I just got this like, major aha, in my head. You know how, maybe I’m a leader. And I find out that one of my employees is going on a trip, and I’ve been there. And they’ve never been there. I don’t I don’t even maybe have to get the book. But I could, you know, go down to the office down to their office or call them up and say, hey, I heard through the grapevine you’re going to New York City this weekend. And I just want to tell you, I’d like to, if you want I can tell you some great spots. I’m very familiar. I mean, can you imagine if one of your leaders came down and took the time to talk to you and said, I’m so excited you’re going on vacation. I mean, it would change the relationship for forever.
David: And you know, next time you have no qualms of staying after 6pm on a Friday to work on a project for that leader, because they demonstrate an interest in you. They demonstrate that they care about you as an individual and not just a cog in the wheel.
Nicole: Yeah. All right. I know that our time is almost up. I got two questions for you, though. I want to know what your definition of leadership is. I’m collecting definitions of leadership. What’s your definition?
David: My definition of leadership. A relentless focus on two things and two things only. Number one brand. Right. Your vision, how you carry yourself and your team and the value your team creates, and your culture. And as I said earlier, I believe that culture is the investment in the individuals who will bring that brand to life. So the best leaders I’ve ever met are servant leaders, the best leaders I’ve ever met, have an incredible knack for identifying exceptional talent. The best leaders demonstrate, model the behaviors they expect in there people. The best leaders never asked their people to do something they wouldn’t do themselves. The best leaders have this insatiable appetite to learn and grow. And they become curve benders in the lives of those that are blessed to lead.
Nicole: That is delightful. All right, I’m gonna go capture all that write it down and post it. So I love that, but I wanted to listen and just thought while you were just naturally ripping all that off. That was great. All right. So there’s one listener right now that is like, ah, okay, so I am really good at my job but I just people thing. What would be your, what would be your final like literally, if you were to whisper in their ear to this one special listener. Listen, just just start right here. What’s your little last piece of advice? You’ve given some major serious pieces, but like one more thing? Give us one more way? How do we start?
David: How did you learn to walk? How did you how did you learn to swim? If you ski or rollerblade, how did you learn to do any of those? I would submit it was the willingness to be bad at something and fall and scrape your knees or drink a little water or have water go up your nose or get you know snow down your pants because you fell. And if you’re willing to be bad at something, you’re opening the door to learn new skills. New capabilities, competencies. And just like you they would walking or swimming, it’s one foot and one arm in front of the other.
Think big. Start small, find a way to repeat and learn and grow through that process. You can do it and the results from doing that, the results from trying new things, the results from integrating relationships and what you do, not just thinking of it as yet something else, is the difference between the dye in the fabric that defines the fabric. This this sweater is gray because the dye in the fabric is gray. Not a patch that that you put on. So become this dye, integrated in what you do. And it will pay dividends for years. It will become, as I said, your biggest, biggest asset.
Nicole: You are totally my favorite today. I gotta tell you, Nour, I talked about the concept. I talked about the concept of willingness all the time. I think it is the ultimate character trait. I read, I read a little book. So don’t forget, you need to get this Curve Benders. But I read this little book, it’s an old book. Have you ever heard of it? It’s called How to Get Anything You Want by Mike Hernacki. Do you know this one? Oh, my gosh, right. Everybody write both of these down. So Mike Hernacki says in his book, he says, people who get what they want have this trait of willingness.
And I love his definition. Being able to do whatever needs to be done. Don’t miss that. Doing whatever needs to be done without reservation, refusal, or judgment. So you just tied a great bow on it. Because listen, you may not want to do it. But you’ve got to be willing to do it without reservation, refusal and judgment. Become the dye. Get interwoven into the situation. Oh, such genius. Listen, the people want to know how they can get get up with you. That’s how we talked in Concord, North Carolina. How do they talk down in Hotlanta? How do people reach you for further help?
David: The easiest, easiest place would be just our website as you were kind enough to mention. Nour Group. N o u r group. nougroup.com. You can also just Google my name David Nour, n o u r. You’ll find all kinds of videos, we have a great private online community, as Nicole was you were kind enough to mention. I’ve written 11 books, I’m working on 12. And there’s all kinds of articles. I’ve got Forbes and Inc, and Medium and LinkedIn. And so there’s a lot of stuff out there that that after 20 years, you kind of become passionate about and write about this topic, but just check out Nour Group. nourgroup.com. That’s our website. I would welcome your audience to reach out and if anything we can do to help please please let us know.
Nicole: Okay, here’s my final word. Star Wars. There is no try, only do. Am I right, David?
David: Absolutely.
Nicole: Okay, everybody it has been great to be with you. Thank you for listening to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. And thank you, Nour for being so amazing and dropping all your genius on my listeners. I’m so grateful.
David: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Voiceover: Ready to build your vibrant culture? Bring Nicole Greer to speak to your leadership team, conference or organization to help them with her strategies, systems and smarts to increase clarity, accountability, energy and results. Your organization will get lit from within. Email Nicole@nicolegreer.com. And be sure to check out Nicole’s TEDx talk at nicolegreer.com.
