Our special guest on this week’s episode of our Vibrant Leadership Podcast is Dan Miller, the author of the New York Times best-selling 48 Days to the Work You Love. Over 140,000 people have subscribed to his weekly newsletter, and his 48 Days Podcast is consistently ranked in the top 1% of all podcasts, helping listeners find and create the work they love. He has been training and certifying coaches for fifteen years, teaching them to help clients identify who they were designed to be.
“Instead of being an elusive process, it’s, ‘can I really change my life in 48 days?’ And my answer is yes, you can, if you create a plan and act on it. So it’s been really magical. 48 days, and I really stick to that,” says Dan.
Dan shares incredible stories of people finding their perfect fit, as well as:
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What we need in great leaders
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The unchanged core messages in the twentieth anniversary publication of his book
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The qualities that will be required for the changes the future holds
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How to broaden your thinking and avoid getting trapped into narrow perspectives
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Leadership according to your personality type
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And more
Mentioned in this episode:
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Visioneering by Andy Stanley
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The E Myth by Michael Gerber
Transcript
Voiceover: You’re listening to the Vibrant Leadership Podcast with leadership speaker and consultant Nicole Greer.
Nicole Greer: Welcome everybody to the Vibrant Leadership Podcast. My name is Nicole Greer and I am absolutely delighted today to have on the show Dan Miller. Dan is the author of a New York Times best selling book called 48 Days to the Work you Love. Over 140,000 people have subscribed to his weekly newsletter, and his 48 Days podcast consistently ranked in the top 1% of all podcasts, helping listeners find or create the work they love. So you are in for an absolute absolute treat. Dan, welcome to the show. I’m so glad you’re here.
Dan Miller: Well, thank you. I’m looking forward to our conversation.
Nicole: Yeah, that’s great. Well, I’m just so curious, because I feel like we are kindred spirits. We both believe in the power of coaching. How did you find your way to coaching?
Dan: It didn’t happen overnight. And it’s certainly not something where I went to college and studied coaching. As you know, coaching is a term that’s kind of evolved over the last 15 or 20 years. So I have degrees in clinical psychology, I was appalled at the process of traditional psychotherapy, it moves way too slowly for me. So I find myself gravitating toward coaching and being much more focused, intense short term from the very get go. But I never developed that as part of my career until much later on.
So I was doing entrepreneurial things. I had used car business and motorhome rentals and fitness centers, and all the things that entrepreneurs do. And it wasn’t until I was in my mid 40s. And my wife and I started teaching a Sunday school class at our church on career life transition. I loved interacting with people. And I thought that we would have, you know, kids who had just lost a job at Burger King and needed another job. So we had some of those. But we had physicians and dentists and attorneys and pastors and engineers and accountants, I’m like, what are you guys doing here? Well, you know, everybody sees us as doing okay, and we are but I don’t think this is it. There’s something I’m missing. And it was at a beautiful opportunity to go deeper with those people in that space.
That opened the door for coaching. So it expanded way beyond the Sunday school class where people would, we actually, were not able to go to church, because Sunday school was in between two services. And we had so many people waiting to talk to us. And we finally just gave up and going to church. And then I turned those extended after Sunday school sessions into real coaching sessions. And it opened my eyes to that opportunity. But I really backed into it. Rather than seeing it as something that I want to develop. I wasn’t looking for anything else. As an entrepreneur. I was fine. I was busy, I was successful. But this just kind of came in the back door. And as the opportunity presented itself, it then developed into writing, speaking coaching, what I’ve done now for many years.
Nicole: Yeah. And so I love the fact that you said coaching takes people forward faster. And so you even say 48 days, tell me about your 48 day methodology? How do you get people moving that quickly?
Dan: Well, again, with my impatience, at seeing how people often move, you know, when I meet with somebody, they tell me their work life, you know, sucks. And we’d map out something brand new. And I run into him a year later, and they hadn’t done anything.
Nicole: Yeah, what’s that about Dan?
Dan: Oh yeah, you know, they’re gonna wait till the mortgage is paid off, they’re gonna wait until their student loans are paid off, they’re going to wait until the kids graduate from high school. I’m going this is nuts. If you really want to change in your life, there needs to be a timeline, not just waiting to all the lights are green. And this was back, I’d love to tell you with some scientific formula, but it really wasn’t a marketing tool. Because it was back when 48 hours from becoming popular as a TV show. And I thought, you know, it’s not just 30, 60, 90 something that sounds kind of generic 48 and rather now as I made it days, so it’s a little more realistic. You know, that’s enough time to assess where you are, get the advice and input of other people, select three or four potential outcomes, do a little bit more research, choose one and act.
And it doesn’t matter if you’re deciding where you’re going to live, where you’re going to go to school, what kind of car you’re going to buy the business you’re going to start or getting a promotion what you’re doing now, that’s enough time. And when I did that, Nicole, it was like somebody poured gasoline on everything I was doing. Instead of this being this elusive. process, okay, we’re going to kind of figure things out hope we get better results. It’s like the end, can I really change my life in 48 days? And my answer then as it is now is yes, you can. If you create a plan and act on it. So it’s been really magical, that 48 days, and I really stick to that. I will work with somebody. And if on day 49, that person still is doing what they were doing. And they’re okay with that. I’m fine. I’ll still love you and be your friend. But I’m moving on. Because I move with, I work with people who take action in that 48 days.
Nicole: Yeah, I love what you’re talking about. One of the concepts that I adore is this concept of willingness. And I have a little TED talk that I’ve done. And I talk about the fact that the people who actually get where they want to go have to have this internal desire to get it done, which is willingness. Right. And it’s defined as like, without reservation, without refusal, or without judgment, I’m going to take action on this plan. Right? So I love what you’re talking about. So you were with people who have willingness that’s out? That’s absolutely awesome.
Dan: Absolutely.
Nicole: Tell me little bit about how your book’s laid out, I kind of heard a formula just then, you know, like you do this and this and this and this. Can you tell us about your formula that’s inside your book?
Dan: Yes. And the book as it is now is, is 20th anniversary edition.
Nicole: That’s fantastic.
Dan: Yeah, I’m delighted with that. And I’ve updated it every five years. So in its current form, it has about 30% of the original content that was there 30 years ago. That content is the core message that 85% of the process of having confidence in moving forward comes from looking inward first, we’re so quickly attuned to who’s hiring, what the trends are hottest franchises, whatever. Those can be a short term solution and long term frustration. But if you look inward, first, you really get a sense of what’s going to work. And in that process, there are three things to be clarified your skills and abilities, not only the things you have the ability to do, but things you know you enjoy doing.
And number two, is your personality tendencies. How do you relate to other people? What kind of environments are you most comfortable in? How do you manage? How do you sell? How do you persuade? That’s a big key and knowing what we want to look for in environment. And the third is what I call values, dreams and passions. What are the things that when you’re doing them, time just flies by you just know you’re in that zone, we talk about athletes being in the zone. So that’s the process that stays the same? The application then of what you do for meaningful, purposeful productive work can change dramatically.
I mean, as we’ve seen this last year, a lot of people thought they were secure in something that totally disappeared. Well, right back to that core understanding of who you are, what you’re all about, and it’ll carry you into the next season, even if the work you’re doing is different. And that does the 70% of the book has changed. We have things like digital nomads and electronic immigrants, new terms for work, very valid, but very different than what we had in past years.
Nicole: Yeah 100%. So I love this idea of turning the mirror inward, which means you’re going to do self assessment, right? Like what is up with me what is going on with me. And I think when people get into that routine of going to the same j o b every day, and maybe when they’re not passionate write about or in love with, as you say, right, get a job you love you have the life and the work you love, which is your main thing. People get numb. And so to actually take the time to look at themselves, figure out their personality and things that you’re talking about is absolutely essential. I agree. 100%. Can you tell us a story about somebody who had a epiphany or a great turnaround or a whole new wonderful life because of going through that process with you?
Dan: Sure. Oh, I love these stories. And we have so many. I talked to a young lady this afternoon, who came to me as an attorney, and she was single, but an attorney and concerned about security, of course and I said well don’t sabotage what you’re doing. You know, we’ll work on something you can do and she wanted to draw on her skills as a copywriter that she had really refined as an attorney taking depositions and all that was a skill she thought she could leverage. So we positioned her as a copywriting coach. So at the beginning of 2017 she started with her traditional job full time job getting paid $78,000 a year and that job, didn’t want to rock the boat there. But you started using 15 hours a week starting in January by October 1 she generated $100,000 in her side business. Well, that give her a little confidence.
Nicole: Right now it’s time to flip the coin, right?
Dan: Not totally. But she was comfortable. I helped her propose to her boss that she would go to three days a week rather than five. He agreed. She did that for another three months, but her business was just exploding. And so she left that. But the next year, the next year, she broke $300,000. And last year, well, now in 2019, then she broke $500,000, but totally away from law, this fancy degree that she had behind her name that most people hang their head on. But she wasn’t trapped, is not to negate the value of what she did. But she wasn’t trapped. And in looking at options, she saw things that gave her more joy and fulfillment in that. Another quick story I have right above me here where you can’t see it.
But it’s right above my office, a picture that was done by a young man who came to me who was pastor of a church. And he had a real turnaround in his own life. He thought the most godly thing he could do was be a pastor. So he went to seminary, got ordained in his pastor of a little church. And of course, they were painting peanuts, like they do a beginning pastor, he was working at a desk clerk at a hotel overnight during the week just to keep food on the table for his wife and five kids. And I’m like, man who sold you this bill of goods, you know, to do this. And he was really taken aback. He thought well am I not doing the most godly thing in the face of the earth?
Nicole: That’s right. He had a calling, right?
Dan: That’s right.
Nicole: Exactly.
Dan: No, I says you’re an imposter. You’re trying to be something you’re not. This doesn’t fit you. You know, you’re trying to do something, it doesn’t fit you. Well, I said, What is it that when you’re doing it, you really do feel like it’s just you’re in that zone. You said oh, I go into a room and our little rented house, I locked the doors I put on Beethoven or Mozart and I paint. I had him quit what he was doing everything he was doing. And for four years, he did pho finishes where he would go in and using brushes, sponges, rags create these dramatic effects on people’s walls.
Today, he doesn’t do that. He does these majestic paintings, they all have a theme of music. His paintings, like the one I have here, as a $10,000 piece is making 10 times the money ever dreamed up. And the interesting thing, Nicole is that he didn’t walk away from his calling. He found the perfect application for it. He says as a pastor people knew what I was going to say. Now I’m just a painter. I’m in their, in their wonderful, expensive homes. They share their hurts their fears and vulnerabilities with me because I’m the painter says I have way more opportunity to really minister in an effective way now than I ever did before. That that’s the power of right fit. And we have to look inward to figure that out. What is that going to be? But once we do we get that sweet blend of passion, talent and money that we’re never going to find any other way.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah. So he went from Pastor to evangelist, it sounds like. That’s fantastic. I love that. So, the calling’s the same. So I love it. All right, well, this is the vibrant leadership podcast. And so let’s talk about leadership a little bit. You know, I think the concept of your book is really like this powerful testimony for doing self leadership. Like, you know, before I leave all these other people out here or get a job where I’m the supervisor, the manager, it’s essential that I really lead myself well first, right? So how do you see the concepts that you use in your coaching, dovetailing with leadership?
Dan: It puts somebody in the driver’s seat. And that doesn’t mean to be egotistical or self centered, it just means to maximize what you really have the ability to do. If you’re looking for just outside structure and somebody to tell you what to do you, you can even be a good manager, but you’re never going to be a leader. Leadership implies, we’re open to new ideas. And this last year has been so challenging for people I recognize that. What an opportunity for leaders. I mean to come onto the scene where the predictable things were taken away. And so we have an opportunity to be creative and innovative and come up with new solutions.
And what I present in my book hopefully helps people do that equips them to do that, by this process of introspection first application being a smaller part of the equation. Once they do that it gives them and and the thing is, you know, I work with universities, universities used to pride themselves in somebody graduates and the placement agency is the university helps him get a job. Yes, we’ve done our job, right. That’s not an effective model. 18 months later, those kids are back on the doorstep having lost a job, what am I supposed to do now? So a one time getting a job to work for 30 years and get a gold watch. That’s not realistic today. So we have to equip people to navigate these relentless, inevitable ongoing transitions that we’re all confronted with. That’s in the process. We become leaders.
Nicole: Yeah. And what I’ve kind of heard is like, maybe your definition of leadership is something around resiliency. Tell me what your definition of leadership is. How do you define it? I heard a lot of resiliency in there.
Dan: Yeah, I just went to a luncheon last week, and a futurist was there. And it was he was, it was so exciting to hear him talk about, he says that even before we knew COVID was coming. When we entered 2020, we entered the decade in which we’re going to see more change than humanity has ever witnessed in this period of time. As an example, the invention that has changed our lives more than anything else without question is the electricity that changed how we live in so many ways. He says AI artificial intelligence is going to change our lives more than electricity did. That’s a pretty startling fact to look at that. But the two words that define people who are going to survive and thrive, adaptive, and resilient.
I love those, both of those. Now, they can be intimidating to think that we aren’t going to keep things. But we have to be realistic, we aren’t going to go back to normal, there’s changes that have happened that are never going to be undone. So our goal cannot be to go back to normal. Our goal is to define what is the new future going to look like. Now for some of us that’s exciting. And I realize, again, it’s not for everybody. But if we can learn to be adaptive and resilient. Then anything that comes, we’re going to be okay, we’re going to get through this. It’s going to be different. We’re going to get through this, and life will go on. Trust me.
Nicole: Exactly. Right. Yeah. And so I’m also kind of hearing you know, that you have to have that growth mindset, right, that, you know, if we can learn to be adaptive, if we can learn to be resilient, we can have that growth mindset. I’m a huge fan of Carol Dweck ‘s work of growth mindset. So we can talk about that in another podcast. But that’s totally what Dan Miller is saying right now, I’ll ask you this question. When you think about the people that you work with, and they’re leading their lives, you’re entrepreneurial yourself. It sounds like you’re talking to doctors, lawyers, Indian chiefs, all these people that are sitting in leadership roles. How do you think they move forward being successful? What skills do they need? I know that was part of your formula is to assess your skills, what skills do great leaders need to have Dan Miller?
Dan: Wow, and you you touched on a couple things there that are pretty important because, okay, assume that as we get more degrees behind our name, we give ourselves more options. In reality, that’s not necessarily true. When I work with a physician, they tend to see possibilities as very, very narrow. It’s that old thing, you know, when you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail, they see things you have very tiny lens, when I talk about the potential of having a hotdog stand down on Second Avenue, where you have 276 customers every day, you know, it blows their mind to think because they think so narrowly, whereas somebody who may not have the degrees oftentimes sees more possibilities out there. So it’s kind of a catch 22.
Now, we would hope that as people add degrees, they do actually recognize there’s a broad scope of possibilities, even within their profession, that oftentimes, they tend to narrow their thinking rather than broaden it. And if you’re going to be a leader, when you get trapped in that narrow perspective, it’s going to really hurt you. And we know that a lot of people who have those degrees, be it medicine, law, dentistry, pharmacology or whatever. They are technicians, but they aren’t good at even running a business, which they’re often forced into. They’re entrepreneurs. They’re not visionaries. They’re what we would call integrators or implementers.
And they’re good with the technical things, but they don’t even have a broad enough vision to know how to run a little entrepreneurial business, and that cripples them. So learning those skills, we can learn how to be adaptive how to have a growth mindset. Other than what Carol Dweck calls a fixed mindset, we can learn to be resilient. These are not things that some people are gifted to have or not. Yeah, we do vary in personalities. And some things may be kind of unchanging, we can learn these things that carry us into the future, and allow us to be effective leaders, it doesn’t mean we’re going to have 20 employees, not necessarily may not have any, but we can still be leaders in a true sense.
Nicole: 100%. So this is what I heard Dan Miller say he said that we need to have visionary skills. So I do have a book for everybody that I think you need to have on your bookshelf ASAP. It’s not a brand new book, but it’s a classic. And it’s called Visioneering by Andy Stanley. So I think that that is an excellent book, if you want to learn how to become a visionary. And then I also heard him say that you need to be entrepreneurial. So being entrepreneurial is absolutely huge. And so I’ve got another classic for everybody write this down, everybody. I want you to get the book, The E Myth, the E Myth by Michael Gerber. There’s many iterations out there, buy one on Amazon, that’s 99 cents and it’s used, it’ll be the best 99 cents you ever, ever spent. So Excellent. So leader need to be entrepreneurial and visionary, I totally agree. Well, if you if you put two leaders in front of dannemiller, which one’s going to succeed? In terms of their personality, you said, one of the things people need to do is they need to turn the mirror inward. And they did figure out what their personality is like, Is there a certain personality that leaders need to have or certain characteristics? What do you think?
Dan: Not necessarily. The kind of bad news if that were true, now we use the DISC a lot here. So we have that we have, you know, dominant influencing steadiness compliance, we use that just because it’s so easy to use, and so many applications. And we would think, well, if you’re dominant, you know, you’re that hard drive and visionary person, then you can be entrepreneurial, be a leader, right? It’s just a different style. If somebody is a high I, they’re going to want to have a lot of people around them. That’s a particular kind of leadership. If somebody is an S or I, they’re going to be or S or C, they’re going to be more introverted, more behind the scenes, perhaps even shy, that’s fine, especially in today’s environment, you can have a thriving entrepreneurial business, and have it where you never interact with the customers that you have, you know, the things that are done in online marketing, and online selling at this point.
So you don’t have to be that gregarious, outgoing social person to be extremely successful. You may be the person who does a lot of research. So you really know, does this product work better at $19.95, or $39.95, people like red, blue, or green, and you’ll be somebody who does research much better than that outgoing gregarious person does. And in doing so, be able to develop a system, it’s so predictable at generated profits that a blow your mind. So I validate leadership, no matter what the person’s personality is, if you then create a model, a business model that fits you, rather than trying to imitate what somebody else may have done.
Nicole: Yeah, I love that. In fact, here’s another classic book. I don’t know why these are coming to me, but I’m going to put it out there. Here’s a book by Jim Collins, and a lot of the research he did in there is outdated. However, in his book, he talks about a level five leader and the level five leaders whenever I read that chapter in there, it’s a person that has an S or a C, right. I agree with you. 100%. So you know what, I think the difference is, Dan, I think it’s not really personality. I think it’s the quality of somebody’s character.
Dan: Okay.
Nicole: You know, and that’s where the willingness comes from, if you’re brave, if you’re conscientious, you know, if you’re, you know, if you can, you know, I know people who are C’s, but they can turn it on, and they can become an I for a couple hours, if that’s what’s necessary in the moment. You know, so there’s the adaptability, there’s the resilience, right? And so understanding a personality model, like the DISC is fantastic. So please go to Dan Miller’s website, which tell us your website address real quick, Dan.
Dan: 48days.com
Nicole: Okay. And on there, he’s got his disc information and how you can you can do that with him. But I think it’s the resilience to move around the model, like recognize, oh, I’m an eye, Nicole Gree’s an I all day long. But sometimes I need to put my fanny in the chair and be a C, which means conscientious, sitting still figuring out if $19.99 versus $39.99 works or whatever you said. I think that’s huge. Okay. So really important skill of a leader is to know your personality, and then work on the quality of your character, which is what I would add to that. Yeah. So being a really great leader and somebody who’s full of integrity for sure. All right. Yeah,
Dan: We have an online community of people who know, nothing more. They’re dreamers, they share ideas. And we have people with every personality, you can imagine there. What I’ve discovered the commonality is, as you defined a character or mindset, that’s, that’s the common characteristic there. It’s not they have to be particular, you know, gender, we can go into all kinds of things, the great continuing common characteristic mindset character that can make you a leader no matter what personality or degrees, or any that have that you have.
Nicole: That’s right. That’s right. It’s all about how you think that’s how I like to think about it. It’s all about thinking. Absolutely. Okay. Well, leaders are out there, they’re challenged by COVID. Let’s just park that over there. I’m tired of talking about COVID. But what are you think, are the real challenges for leaders ahead? I mean, you got this time with this futurist, which is really exciting. So o what are the big challenges ahead, we’re gonna have to learn how to deal with AI. Get people with a fixed mindset, anything else you think out there on the horizon, people need to think about if they’re leaders?
Dan: Well, we have to embrace change, because things are changing so rapidly, about the time we think we have things in place, be at a business model, a product or service, change is going to come along. But if we have that understanding, internally, again, what is our unique skill? What do we have as marketable skills, the application can continue to change. And frankly, some of us welcome that, you know, for a wired, a change, predictability can be very boring. For some of us, you know, if you’re high I, you don’t want things to stay the same. That’s very dangerous, unite and change, challenge variety. But leaders are going to continue to be and they can be people who are who are quiet or introspective.
But they have to be people who embrace creativity and innovation to move forward and find new solutions. When I look back at people like Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, you know, Rockefeller, Carnegie, people like that. They weren’t these boisterous, outgoing people, but they were, they were finding new solutions for challenges are right in front of us. So I have people kind of walk through a timeline. Follow your curiosity, people say I don’t know what my passion is, follow your curiosity.
Passion is kind of the intersection of curiosities. And then when you’re curious about something you spend time doing, that passion can be developed, it doesn’t have to be discovered it can be developed. And with that, then you embrace talent that you have. And when you have those in place, you often recognize the need in the marketplace, it can be some kind of altruistic, nonprofit thing, or just something that you recognize people need while you connect with that create a plan. And all of a sudden, you have a life plan, a purpose all laid out, it just walks right through one leads to the next. And you’ve got purpose, and with a beautiful place to live.
Nicole: All right, I love that. That is beautiful. I have one last question for you. Because I laid that out beautifully. And this is my question. If you are mentoring one single special listener, and I know you do this all the time. What piece of leadership advice would you give to them?
Dan: Recognize it’s never too late to have a new beginning. Even if you haven’t been doing the things that make you a leader in the past. Look for what is it that makes you indispensable? What is it that, you know Seth Godin would call linchpin? What is it you do, that nobody else can do? What is your unique ability, not just something that you’re competent in or that you do with excellence? What is it that only you can do? That’s your opportunity, or leadership. It doesn’t have to be monumental, but that helps you define what area are you going to lead in your unique ability, your zone of genius?
Nicole: I love it. All right. Well, it has been an absolute delight to be with you today. Dan Miller, you have given us wisdom and genius, and tips and formulas and systems. So it’s been a very good interview, and I’m so grateful for your time and energy. I know you’re down there in Florida. Am I correct?
Dan: You’re correct.
Nicole: Yeah. So so if you’re ever in Florida, you need to look up Dan Miller. Also check him out on Amazon. Tell us the name of your book one more time Dan and how we can find you.
Dan: It’s 48 Days to the Work and Life you Love. And we actually created a unique link for you and your listeners. They go to 48days.com/vibrant. They’ll see there they can get a three first chapter from other bonuses we have there is to get familiar with the concepts that you and I have talked about today.
Nicole: That is fantastic. I’ll make sure to put that in the show notes. I’m absolutely delighted to see you and I hope you have a vibrant week. We’ll talk to you later.
Dan: Thank you so much, Nicole,
Voiceover: Ready to up your leadership game? Bring Nicole Greer to speak to your leadership team, conference or organization to help them with her unique SHINE method to increase clarity, accountability, energy and results. Email speaking@vibrantculture.com, and be sure to check out Nicole’s TEDx talk at vibrantculture.com/TEDtalk.
